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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ForbidenMaster" data-source="post: 4789342" data-attributes="member: 63213">EDITED: As per Nails post belowI think we can all agree that the whole point of the expertise and magic item progression is so that we have an even growth in power as possible.  The goal then is to try to manipulate the system in such a way as to get that even progression.  Assuming my math is correct, I think the process below is the most effective way of getting an even power progression.  Therefor, any deviation from this will result in a relatively over powered or under powered character.  Use it as you will, but in the end I think one thing is clear, assuming no other reliable outside bonus to hit, expertise is definitely needed, HeroicAverage Monster AC = 14+LevelAverage PC Attack Bonus = Mod+Proficiency+1/2 level+Magic+Expertise[code]Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 1:4+2+0+0+0=6 vs. 15=14+1Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 2:4+2+1+0+0=7 vs. 16=14+2Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 3:4+2+1+[B]1[/B]+0=8 vs. 17=14+3Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 4:4+2+2+1+0=9 vs. 18=14+4Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 5:4+2+2+1+[B]1[/B]=10 vs. 19=14+5Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 6:4+2+3+1+1=11 vs. 20=14+6Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 7:4+2+3+[B]2[/B]+1=12 vs. 21=14+7Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 8:[B]5[/B]+2+4+2+1=14 vs. 22=14+8Chance to hit = 65%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 9:5+2+4+2+1=14 vs. 23=14+9Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 10:5+2+5+2+1=15 vs. 24=14+10Chance to hit = 60%[/code]So it seems like there is a lot less swing if you give the players a better magic item at levels 3 and 7, but in order to maintain a 60% chance to hit it is still best to give the players expertise at level 5.  Alternatively you could give the players a better magic item at level 5 instead of 7 and take expertise by level 7, but I think its clear that expertise is needed.ParagonAverage Monster AC = 14+LevelAverage PC Attack Bonus = Mod+Proficiency+1/2 level+Magic+Expertice[code]Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 11:5+2+5+[B]3[/B]+1=16 vs. 25=14+11Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 12:5+2+6+3+1=17 vs. 26=14+12Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 13:5+2+6+3+1=17 vs. 27=14+13Chance to hit = 55%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 14:[B]6[/B]+2+7+3+1=19 vs. 28=14+14Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 15:6+2+7+3+[B]2[/B]=20 vs. 29=14+15Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 16:6+2+8+3+2=21 vs. 30=14+16Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 17:6+2+8+[B]4[/B]+2=22 vs. 31=14+17Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 18:6+2+9+4+2=23 vs. 32=14+18Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 19:6+2+9+[B]5[/B]+2=24 vs. 33=14+19Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 20:6+2+10+5+2=25 vs. 34=14+20Chance to hit = 60%[/code]So this time a new magic item at level 11, 17, and 19 along with the bonus from expertise help balance every thing out most of the way.EpicAverage Monster AC = 14+LevelAverage PC Attack Bonus = Mod+Proficiency+1/2 level+Magic+Expertice[code]Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 21:[B]7[/B]+2+10+5+2=26 vs. 35=14+21Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 22:7+2+11+5+2=27 vs. 36=14+22Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 23:7+2+11+[B]6[/B]+2=28 vs. 37=14+23Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 24:7+2+12+6+2=29 vs. 38=14+24Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 25:7+2+12+6+[B]3[/B]=30 vs. 39=14+25Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 26:7+2+13+6+3=31 vs. 40=14+26Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 27:7+2+13+6+3=31 vs. 41=14+27Chance to hit = 55%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 28:[B]8[/B]+2+14+6+3=33 vs. 42=14+28Chance to hit = 60%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 29:8+2+14+6+3=33 vs. 43=14+29Chance to hit = 55%Assumed PC attack vs average monster AC at level 30:8+2+15+6+3=34 vs. 44=14+30Chance to hit = 55%[/code]Since we gave out the +5 magic weapon in paragon we only have the +6 weapon at 23, plus the boost from expertise at 25, but as you can see the progression is pretty even.</blockquote>

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