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<blockquote data-quote="DrSpunj" data-source="post: 4806510" data-attributes="member: 994"><p>Sorry that something's got your leg, but *I* am not. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/nervous.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":heh:" title="Nervous Laugh :heh:" data-shortname=":heh:" /></p><p></p><p>Now, I don't want to kill PCs frequently, but I do want PC death to be a real possibility in the middle of Hard encounters and sometimes even Standard encounters where the party has very poor tactics.</p><p></p><p>However, PC death in 4th edition from what I've seen in our current campaign and the 8th level Dungeon Delve we did a few weeks ago (so admittedly limited to Heroic Tier) is <span style="font-size: 15px">NOT</span> even likely in very Hard combats with poor party tactics and skewed die rolling like we had last night!</p><p></p><p>Maybe it's the fact that our party has 7 PCs. Maybe it's because we have 2 Leaders. Maybe it's because I'm doing something wrong with the combat challenges I'm putting together. Maybe it's because the party's tactics are always awesomely superb (but I don't think so!) <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> But not one PC in our games over 14 sessions now has come <em>close</em> to dying.</p><p></p><p>Let me define that very clearly again:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A PC has missed two death saves and therefore on their next turn <em>could</em> die (though our Swordmage in last night's big battle did miss one out of 2 or 3 rolls, the first time I can remember any PC having to make a death save in the last 6 sessions or so)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">While dying the PC taken enough damage to fall into the bottom half of their negative bloodied HP total so that they are reasonably within one Coup de Grace attack of dying or will die because of ongoing damage that will kill them at the beginning of their next turn</li> </ul><p></p><p>Most 4e Heroic Tier combats last 7-8 rounds, with Hard encounters likely another 2-3 as a rough guess. With a 55% or better chance at making a death save that means a PC likely has to go without any healing of any kind for around 5-6 rounds before failing 3 death saves. That's <u>very</u> unlikely to happen even without all the ways the party has to heal in most combats.</p><p></p><p>Looking at dying by reaching negative bloodied HP and we have a critical hit we can factor in for the CDG attempt. Last night that would've been 11 dmg from either the Defenders or Sentries. Checking our party's squishes we have Bloodied values of:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tiefling Warlock: Total of 44 hp so bloodied would be 22. That means we're looking at 2 CDG attempts to kill her.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Elven Ranger: Total of 41 hp so 20 here, still 2 CDGs to kill her.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Human Wizard: Calculated wrong, should be 45 with his Toughness feat so bloodied would be 22; again 2 CDGs necessary to kill him.</li> </ul><p>Of course the non-squishy PCs are taking most of the attacks & damage and CDGing them to death is even tougher to do.</p><p></p><p>Also keep in mind that the DM has likely already used all the cool, higher damaging Encounter and Recharging powers early in the combat and therefore they're not available typically in mid-to-late combat when a PC is dying. Just like the players, in the later rounds my bad guys are usually just utilizing their basic attacks unless I get lucky with a recharge roll.</p><p></p><p>Admittedly the party wasn't up against Lurkers or Brutes last night which would likely have a higher CDG damage output, but a quick perusal shows some of them doing 14-18 dmg on a critical, so it'd still probably take 2 CDGs to kill a PC.</p><p></p><p>To summarize, 4e in the Heroic Tier doesn't appear to be very deadly. That's not required to have fun, as I think last night's battle showed, but it's something that I feel is missing from our game as a middle ground between the standard "we'll be just fine, give us about 5 minutes" and a TPK. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DrSpunj, post: 4806510, member: 994"] Sorry that something's got your leg, but *I* am not. :heh: Now, I don't want to kill PCs frequently, but I do want PC death to be a real possibility in the middle of Hard encounters and sometimes even Standard encounters where the party has very poor tactics. However, PC death in 4th edition from what I've seen in our current campaign and the 8th level Dungeon Delve we did a few weeks ago (so admittedly limited to Heroic Tier) is [SIZE="4"]NOT[/SIZE] even likely in very Hard combats with poor party tactics and skewed die rolling like we had last night! Maybe it's the fact that our party has 7 PCs. Maybe it's because we have 2 Leaders. Maybe it's because I'm doing something wrong with the combat challenges I'm putting together. Maybe it's because the party's tactics are always awesomely superb (but I don't think so!) :lol: But not one PC in our games over 14 sessions now has come [i]close[/i] to dying. Let me define that very clearly again: [LIST][*]A PC has missed two death saves and therefore on their next turn [i]could[/i] die (though our Swordmage in last night's big battle did miss one out of 2 or 3 rolls, the first time I can remember any PC having to make a death save in the last 6 sessions or so) [*]While dying the PC taken enough damage to fall into the bottom half of their negative bloodied HP total so that they are reasonably within one Coup de Grace attack of dying or will die because of ongoing damage that will kill them at the beginning of their next turn[/LIST] Most 4e Heroic Tier combats last 7-8 rounds, with Hard encounters likely another 2-3 as a rough guess. With a 55% or better chance at making a death save that means a PC likely has to go without any healing of any kind for around 5-6 rounds before failing 3 death saves. That's [u]very[/u] unlikely to happen even without all the ways the party has to heal in most combats. Looking at dying by reaching negative bloodied HP and we have a critical hit we can factor in for the CDG attempt. Last night that would've been 11 dmg from either the Defenders or Sentries. Checking our party's squishes we have Bloodied values of: [LIST][*]Tiefling Warlock: Total of 44 hp so bloodied would be 22. That means we're looking at 2 CDG attempts to kill her. [*]Elven Ranger: Total of 41 hp so 20 here, still 2 CDGs to kill her. [*]Human Wizard: Calculated wrong, should be 45 with his Toughness feat so bloodied would be 22; again 2 CDGs necessary to kill him.[/LIST] Of course the non-squishy PCs are taking most of the attacks & damage and CDGing them to death is even tougher to do. Also keep in mind that the DM has likely already used all the cool, higher damaging Encounter and Recharging powers early in the combat and therefore they're not available typically in mid-to-late combat when a PC is dying. Just like the players, in the later rounds my bad guys are usually just utilizing their basic attacks unless I get lucky with a recharge roll. Admittedly the party wasn't up against Lurkers or Brutes last night which would likely have a higher CDG damage output, but a quick perusal shows some of them doing 14-18 dmg on a critical, so it'd still probably take 2 CDGs to kill a PC. To summarize, 4e in the Heroic Tier doesn't appear to be very deadly. That's not required to have fun, as I think last night's battle showed, but it's something that I feel is missing from our game as a middle ground between the standard "we'll be just fine, give us about 5 minutes" and a TPK. :erm: [/QUOTE]
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