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<blockquote data-quote="Elric" data-source="post: 4807924" data-attributes="member: 1139">To add to this a bit: Not being able to hurt the Battlerager Fighter speaks more to the power of the Battlerager Fighter than to the default challenge of the game, or the encounters you're creating.&nbsp; Even a non-Con bonus race can take 16 Con/Improved Vigor for 4 temp HP at level 5 and the &quot;normal damage expression&quot; for level 5 in the DMG is only 9.5 average damage.&nbsp; It's not like Con-fighters would be weak if they couldn't be battleragers!&nbsp; You'd probably have to go out of your way to increase the number of ranged attackers compared to what you'd normally use to consistently threaten your Battlerager Fighter (&quot;over-damaged&quot; Brutes like guard drakes could also do the trick).If you find Expertise unnecessary to alter the math at the heroic tier, and don't like the implementation, you could ban the feat and give players a +1 to hit upon reaching Paragon levels, which improves to +2 to hit at epic levels.&nbsp; This keeps the math of the game only slightly behind what it would be with the Expertise feats and avoids the problems caused by the feats.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Elric, post: 4807924, member: 1139"] To add to this a bit: Not being able to hurt the Battlerager Fighter speaks more to the power of the Battlerager Fighter than to the default challenge of the game, or the encounters you're creating. Even a non-Con bonus race can take 16 Con/Improved Vigor for 4 temp HP at level 5 and the "normal damage expression" for level 5 in the DMG is only 9.5 average damage. It's not like Con-fighters would be weak if they couldn't be battleragers! You'd probably have to go out of your way to increase the number of ranged attackers compared to what you'd normally use to consistently threaten your Battlerager Fighter ("over-damaged" Brutes like guard drakes could also do the trick). If you find Expertise unnecessary to alter the math at the heroic tier, and don't like the implementation, you could ban the feat and give players a +1 to hit upon reaching Paragon levels, which improves to +2 to hit at epic levels. This keeps the math of the game only slightly behind what it would be with the Expertise feats and avoids the problems caused by the feats. [/QUOTE]

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