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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 4807991" data-attributes="member: 67338">yep hard fight close to twice the average round of combat (average is 10 this should take about 15-20) by the way most of those power bonuses that wont stack with Bless give more then +1 so it is +1 whole fight (equal to expertise) and +X-1 to the attacks that the other benefits come up. Funny how you dismiss out of hand a bonus equal to this feat…  Ok what about auto damage powers and minor action stuff, or heck how about non damage powers...by the way i think your avrg is low for a 11th level party (I know the op board says fighter at wills average 50+ damage in paragon I assume strikers can at least come close to that) but even so ok...  well I figured if you made an 11th level part and got level+1 level and level -1...if you have PCs grown organically there is no way to guess...so I went expected… the treasure packets give level +X items though where (I believe) +4 is doable, so you start getting +3 weapon/implements at level 7…  wait so the hardest fight you can fight at your level is hard enough that it is TPK possible, and at the same time still possible to win...seams like as intended to me...Again what do you expect the HARDEST fair encounter should be??   Inless the rogue or wizard uses a power that knock it prone, or daze it...every time I have tried such a tactic as hover/invulnerable the PCs have found a way to bring the fight back tot eh ground... Walking wounded is the one I get hit with the most, although an eladrin rouge once used topel over (melee only) by fey steping up to use it…   see there is the problem you assume the DM/Dragon be played to the hilt, but the PCs are on bot mode...How many powers knock prone...I went to the compendiumWizard: 9 (I bet all of these are range)Rouge: 4 (I know at least 1 is rangedRanger 2 (I assume at least 1 is ranged)Cleric 2 (I know at least command is ranged)Fighter 7 (I assume most are melee only if not all)so it is not unrealistic to assume atleast 1 PC can... and remember once you get it down the fighter can mark it, and it is stuck…opp attacks hit MORE often, and stop movenext lets do stun shall we…  why can't he again?  There are ways other then flanking if that is your only metric...  If the players play smart it is an average encounter...especially if they knew it was coming and held an action point...        Infact I think the one thing we can both agree on is in ANY fair fight if one side is played as dumb, and the other is played tactically then the smart side has a way easier time of it… Dumb dragon = easier fight…Smart Dragon= Harder fight…Dumb player=TPK… smart player= more of a chance…  so why give it for free when PCs can choose to take it...              Just to give you an idea of what happens when this is all said and done, remember that the HARDEST soldier (Highest def) you could throw at the party is still beatable (all be it with luck and skill) how ever all that proves is how awesome the design of 4e is…     By the way notice none of them have paragon paths…if the rouge is criting on 18+, And the fighter gets another +1 to hit, just those two classes get dpr (man I feel dirty using that metric) increases…      or that it is being worked on...again look at my post about multi groups of players...WotC has to balance these things.</blockquote>

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