Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Expertise justification?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4808177" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>I only dismiss it for three reasons:</p><p></p><p>1) Most such powers require a successful hit to work.</p><p>2) Most such powers last for a turn instead of the entire encounter like Bless.</p><p>3) Most such powers affect one ally instead of all 5 PCs like Bless.</p><p></p><p>So, most such powers are white noise. Yup, they help. Nope, they aren't typically worth discussing with regard to whether the encounter should be a success or not, or how long the encounter lasts.</p><p></p><p>And what happens if the Cleric does not have Bless or if the Cleric cast it already this day?</p><p></p><p>My analysis gave the benefit of the doubt to the PCs.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Average successful hit.</p><p></p><p>Over an extended period of time, not just one power.</p><p></p><p>Feel free to point out exact examples where these PCs can average more than what I wrote.</p><p></p><p>I was not assuming super optimized PCs from the optimization boards, just normally optimized PCs that would be found in most games.</p><p></p><p>I'll gladly bow to any legitimate numbers that you can back up with details.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yup. At level 7, a PC could acquire a +3 weapon with no special powers. Or, +3 armor, or +3 Cloak, or a +2 item with special abilities.</p><p></p><p>The point is that is it unlikely that all 5 PCs in a normal campaign would have +3 weapons at level 11. Possible, yes. Likely, no.</p><p></p><p>And that affects the analysis. We assumed so for simplicity, but that is not typical so I pointed it out.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You missed my point. I did not think a TPK was just possible.</p><p></p><p>I thought a TPK was likely if the Dragon does not fight on the ground.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nope. I didn't assume the PCs are on bot mode. I just don't see where they have a big enough gun.</p><p></p><p>I assumed the Dragon to be played intelligently and the PCs to be played intelligently (even though some PCs might have Int 8, an Int 13 Dragon should be as tactically capable as they are).</p><p></p><p>Doing Hover and Attack is not playing the Dragon to the hilt either. It's Dragon 101. Attacking a single foe until it is dead, especially a Cleric once he heals or a Wizard if he drops conditions on the Dragon, is Dragon 101.</p><p></p><p>An Adult Red Dragon is 400 to 900 years old (give or take). It should have learned some lessons in that timeframe. The game is Dungeons and <strong>Dragons</strong>. A Dragon should never be played like a putz.</p><p></p><p>The Dragon could drop rocks from 300 feet up outdoors and never get counterattacked. The Dragon could have traps. The Dragon could have allies. That would be playing the Dragon to the hilt (and yes, that would up the XP, but the point is that the Dragon should be prepared to do that if necessary).</p><p></p><p>As DMs, we often think in two dimensional terms instead of three dimensional terms.</p><p></p><p>Use all of the abilities of the Dragon, not just some of them. And, focus fire.</p><p></p><p>But, the Dragon should not fight to the death. If it is about 75% wounded and there are still 3 or more PCs standing, it should flee.</p><p></p><p>This is a 400 to 900 year old Dragon. It should not be stupid enough to stick around. Dragon 101. Go buy a small army of monsters with a little treasure and come back and attack the PCs when they are vulnerable. Then, replenish the treasure from both the PC's dead bodies and from the bodies of the army that the Dragon turns on when the PCs are dead. Dragon 101.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yup. These things can happen.</p><p></p><p>CAN.</p><p></p><p>And they can bring the Dragon to the ground for a few rounds out of the 18.</p><p></p><p>With a Wizard that hits on 1 round in 3 if Bless is up. With a Cleric whose Command prayer hits 15% of the time. With a Fighter and a Ranger and a Rogue, none of whose knock prone attacks are ranged with the exception of Walking Wounded (unless there is one in Dragon, I did not look there).</p><p></p><p>I'm not seeing the love for the PCs. The Wizard is the only serious threat with this tactic and if he starts using it, he also becomes a serious target.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe you could tell us where all of these Stunning ranged powers of level 11 or lower are located. I could not find any, even for the Wizard except for Sleep (which is not really stunned, but works about the same). Unless he's an Orb Wizard (and that's an entire other can of worms), the Dragon will probably save within a few rounds at +5 to save.</p><p></p><p>And, a Dragon can still hover when Stunned. So yes, stun will delay the Dragon, but it will not lower the number of rounds of combat by too much (the CA helps though).</p><p></p><p>Again, I'm not seeing a way to turn around the encounter here anywhere, especially since the PCs probably won't be stunning the Dragon.</p><p></p><p></p><p>There are many conditions. How does Slow bother the hovering Dragon at all?</p><p></p><p>Weakened helps, but typically for only 1 or 2 rounds until the Dragon makes the save (or the power expires).</p><p></p><p>Daze doesn't stop a Breath Weapon or two Claw attacks.</p><p></p><p>Pull or Slide might be helpful.</p><p></p><p>But, nothing here is that overwhelmingly helpful for the PCs.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yup. Which is why I said "up to 5 rounds". It could be 1, 3, or 5, depending on whether the Rogue and Fighter can find other ways to get Combat Advantage. With the Dragon not fighting on the ground, it is unlikely though that most rounds will have these PCs with Combat Advantage. Some rounds due to a different power or feat or something, sure.</p><p></p><p>But note that I assumed that both the Rogue and Fighter would be getting CA every single round with the original numbers. I suspect that most people would find that generous.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Average? An n+4 encounter is average? I want to be smoking what you are smoking. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yup. It all adds up. And Paragon Path features might shave off 2 rounds. Maybe.</p><p></p><p>But, that still puts the fight in the 16+ or longer range ASSUMING that nobody goes unconscious or dies. The fight turns in the Dragon's favor real quick if the Dragon can kill a PC, especially the Cleric. With the damage the Dragon does, it could do this in 6 rounds or so, probably after the Cleric does his first heal of the wounded Wizard, so maybe the Dragon might focus on the Cleric starting in round 4 or 5.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yup.</p><p></p><p>And, just bad dice rolls can turn an encounter like this south for the players real quick.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Bottom line, n+4 encounters appear to be considerably easier at lower levels than higher levels. Even at level 11, a major power boost level for PCs, this is a tough "fight for our lives" fight. At level 10, an n+4 encounter is even more deadly because the PCs do not have the Paragon Path features (and Strikers do less damage, etc.).</p><p></p><p>A DM has to be real careful just following the suggestions from the DMG when it comes to several levels higher than the PCs encounters.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 4808177, member: 2011"] I only dismiss it for three reasons: 1) Most such powers require a successful hit to work. 2) Most such powers last for a turn instead of the entire encounter like Bless. 3) Most such powers affect one ally instead of all 5 PCs like Bless. So, most such powers are white noise. Yup, they help. Nope, they aren't typically worth discussing with regard to whether the encounter should be a success or not, or how long the encounter lasts. And what happens if the Cleric does not have Bless or if the Cleric cast it already this day? My analysis gave the benefit of the doubt to the PCs. Average successful hit. Over an extended period of time, not just one power. Feel free to point out exact examples where these PCs can average more than what I wrote. I was not assuming super optimized PCs from the optimization boards, just normally optimized PCs that would be found in most games. I'll gladly bow to any legitimate numbers that you can back up with details. Yup. At level 7, a PC could acquire a +3 weapon with no special powers. Or, +3 armor, or +3 Cloak, or a +2 item with special abilities. The point is that is it unlikely that all 5 PCs in a normal campaign would have +3 weapons at level 11. Possible, yes. Likely, no. And that affects the analysis. We assumed so for simplicity, but that is not typical so I pointed it out. You missed my point. I did not think a TPK was just possible. I thought a TPK was likely if the Dragon does not fight on the ground. Nope. I didn't assume the PCs are on bot mode. I just don't see where they have a big enough gun. I assumed the Dragon to be played intelligently and the PCs to be played intelligently (even though some PCs might have Int 8, an Int 13 Dragon should be as tactically capable as they are). Doing Hover and Attack is not playing the Dragon to the hilt either. It's Dragon 101. Attacking a single foe until it is dead, especially a Cleric once he heals or a Wizard if he drops conditions on the Dragon, is Dragon 101. An Adult Red Dragon is 400 to 900 years old (give or take). It should have learned some lessons in that timeframe. The game is Dungeons and [b]Dragons[/b]. A Dragon should never be played like a putz. The Dragon could drop rocks from 300 feet up outdoors and never get counterattacked. The Dragon could have traps. The Dragon could have allies. That would be playing the Dragon to the hilt (and yes, that would up the XP, but the point is that the Dragon should be prepared to do that if necessary). As DMs, we often think in two dimensional terms instead of three dimensional terms. Use all of the abilities of the Dragon, not just some of them. And, focus fire. But, the Dragon should not fight to the death. If it is about 75% wounded and there are still 3 or more PCs standing, it should flee. This is a 400 to 900 year old Dragon. It should not be stupid enough to stick around. Dragon 101. Go buy a small army of monsters with a little treasure and come back and attack the PCs when they are vulnerable. Then, replenish the treasure from both the PC's dead bodies and from the bodies of the army that the Dragon turns on when the PCs are dead. Dragon 101. Yup. These things can happen. CAN. And they can bring the Dragon to the ground for a few rounds out of the 18. With a Wizard that hits on 1 round in 3 if Bless is up. With a Cleric whose Command prayer hits 15% of the time. With a Fighter and a Ranger and a Rogue, none of whose knock prone attacks are ranged with the exception of Walking Wounded (unless there is one in Dragon, I did not look there). I'm not seeing the love for the PCs. The Wizard is the only serious threat with this tactic and if he starts using it, he also becomes a serious target. Maybe you could tell us where all of these Stunning ranged powers of level 11 or lower are located. I could not find any, even for the Wizard except for Sleep (which is not really stunned, but works about the same). Unless he's an Orb Wizard (and that's an entire other can of worms), the Dragon will probably save within a few rounds at +5 to save. And, a Dragon can still hover when Stunned. So yes, stun will delay the Dragon, but it will not lower the number of rounds of combat by too much (the CA helps though). Again, I'm not seeing a way to turn around the encounter here anywhere, especially since the PCs probably won't be stunning the Dragon. There are many conditions. How does Slow bother the hovering Dragon at all? Weakened helps, but typically for only 1 or 2 rounds until the Dragon makes the save (or the power expires). Daze doesn't stop a Breath Weapon or two Claw attacks. Pull or Slide might be helpful. But, nothing here is that overwhelmingly helpful for the PCs. Yup. Which is why I said "up to 5 rounds". It could be 1, 3, or 5, depending on whether the Rogue and Fighter can find other ways to get Combat Advantage. With the Dragon not fighting on the ground, it is unlikely though that most rounds will have these PCs with Combat Advantage. Some rounds due to a different power or feat or something, sure. But note that I assumed that both the Rogue and Fighter would be getting CA every single round with the original numbers. I suspect that most people would find that generous. Average? An n+4 encounter is average? I want to be smoking what you are smoking. :lol: Yup. It all adds up. And Paragon Path features might shave off 2 rounds. Maybe. But, that still puts the fight in the 16+ or longer range ASSUMING that nobody goes unconscious or dies. The fight turns in the Dragon's favor real quick if the Dragon can kill a PC, especially the Cleric. With the damage the Dragon does, it could do this in 6 rounds or so, probably after the Cleric does his first heal of the wounded Wizard, so maybe the Dragon might focus on the Cleric starting in round 4 or 5. Yup. And, just bad dice rolls can turn an encounter like this south for the players real quick. Bottom line, n+4 encounters appear to be considerably easier at lower levels than higher levels. Even at level 11, a major power boost level for PCs, this is a tough "fight for our lives" fight. At level 10, an n+4 encounter is even more deadly because the PCs do not have the Paragon Path features (and Strikers do less damage, etc.). A DM has to be real careful just following the suggestions from the DMG when it comes to several levels higher than the PCs encounters. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Expertise justification?
Top