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Expertise justification?
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<blockquote data-quote="DrSpunj" data-source="post: 4811921" data-attributes="member: 994"><p>First, thank you for message. Second, thanks for adding to the discussion with specific points and positions.</p><p></p><p>That said, your corrected spreadsheet just seems to drive home one of my concerns:</p><p></p><p>If Expertise is stealth errata to try and patch Bad Math (tm), then making it a series of feats that only corrects the math error for those PCs that take the feat and then for only some of their attacks (unless they take it multiple times to a varying degree based on race & class) is not <u>my</u> preferred way of solving the Bad Math problem, since it really <em>doesn't</em> in a fair way to all involved. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>And thanks very much for the spreadsheet! I was going to put something like it together to take a better look at the math. I <em>think</em> most everyone that commented at all much earlier in this thread on what percentage of PCs attacks should hit given the base underlying math thought ~60% was a good goal since that's what happens in Heroic Tier pre-Expertise and the math there after a year of playtesting by the masses seems pretty solid.</p><p></p><p>With that in mind I also believe that PCs chance to hit <strong>must</strong> fall some at higher tiers of play to allow design space for combat advantage, feats, powers, paragon paths & all the other things that grant bonuses to attacks to...<em>shine</em> and have a definite impact on the game <u>most</u> of the time they're used. As you say, what we're discussing here is how much of a reduction is likely to be considered fair and fun for most everyone.</p><p></p><p>Entering in a couple extra columns on your spreadsheet shows that per PHB1 math (ie. without Expertise) the average To Hit % by tier is:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Heroic 58.5%</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Paragon 51.0%</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Epic 44.0%</li> </ul><p>which I'm interpreting as Bad Math (tm). <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>So, at this point I'm a lot more comfortable going with what many here have already proposed as an Expertise <em>house rule</em>:</p><p></p><p>All Expertise feats are banned; instead all PCs receive a flat +1 unnamed bonus to attacks at 11th level which increases to +2 at 21st level.</p><p></p><p>This changes the average To Hit % by tier to:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Heroic 58.5%</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Paragon 56.0%</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Epic 54.0%</li> </ul><p>which is a lot tighter and still allows all the attack bonuses to be meaningful!</p><p></p><p>Now I just have to sort through the NADs feats and issues. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" /></p><p></p><p>Thanks!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DrSpunj, post: 4811921, member: 994"] First, thank you for message. Second, thanks for adding to the discussion with specific points and positions. That said, your corrected spreadsheet just seems to drive home one of my concerns: If Expertise is stealth errata to try and patch Bad Math (tm), then making it a series of feats that only corrects the math error for those PCs that take the feat and then for only some of their attacks (unless they take it multiple times to a varying degree based on race & class) is not [u]my[/u] preferred way of solving the Bad Math problem, since it really [i]doesn't[/i] in a fair way to all involved. ;) And thanks very much for the spreadsheet! I was going to put something like it together to take a better look at the math. I [i]think[/i] most everyone that commented at all much earlier in this thread on what percentage of PCs attacks should hit given the base underlying math thought ~60% was a good goal since that's what happens in Heroic Tier pre-Expertise and the math there after a year of playtesting by the masses seems pretty solid. With that in mind I also believe that PCs chance to hit [b]must[/b] fall some at higher tiers of play to allow design space for combat advantage, feats, powers, paragon paths & all the other things that grant bonuses to attacks to...[i]shine[/i] and have a definite impact on the game [u]most[/u] of the time they're used. As you say, what we're discussing here is how much of a reduction is likely to be considered fair and fun for most everyone. Entering in a couple extra columns on your spreadsheet shows that per PHB1 math (ie. without Expertise) the average To Hit % by tier is: [LIST][*]Heroic 58.5% [*]Paragon 51.0% [*]Epic 44.0%[/LIST] which I'm interpreting as Bad Math (tm). ;) So, at this point I'm a lot more comfortable going with what many here have already proposed as an Expertise [i]house rule[/i]: All Expertise feats are banned; instead all PCs receive a flat +1 unnamed bonus to attacks at 11th level which increases to +2 at 21st level. This changes the average To Hit % by tier to: [LIST][*]Heroic 58.5% [*]Paragon 56.0% [*]Epic 54.0%[/LIST] which is a lot tighter and still allows all the attack bonuses to be meaningful! Now I just have to sort through the NADs feats and issues. :erm: Thanks! [/QUOTE]
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