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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jim Hague" data-source="post: 2793537" data-attributes="member: 17550">Thanks!  Since I'm home now, and not at the accursed work, I can haul out the rulebooks and do my level best to support my points.  As a disclaimer in the name of being forthright - I've done writing for d20, quite a bit of it.  The biggest chunk of my work can be found in The World's Largest Dungeon, and I'll try and reference some of my writing for the Regions I wrote here.  That said, my first writing gig freelance wasn't for a d20 product at all, but for the sadly unsupported 7th Sea gameline, which while flawed, is about the polar opposite of D&D's crunchy mechanics.   Take that for what you will.  Now, that being said...let's get to it.Hey, I just appreciate being able to rap with someone that can admit to flaws, mistakes and foibles.  We've all got 'em - you, me, Luke, whoever.  It's what keeps things interesting.  Now, lemme see here:I've seen plenty mention of games where Charisma is considered the 'dump' stat.  This baffles and annoys me, since it's often mentioned hand in hand with those selfsame players acting out charismatic and influential characters.  Charisma supports roleplay, IMO, as any stat should - by helping define the character.  Charismatic characters are quick-witted, have strong, influential personalities and are inspiring, just as a character with a high Strength is a mountain of brute power, high Constiution characters are tougher to kill...extend the analogy   however you like, there's six stats, all have nifty definitions.  However, it's up to the GM and players to bring those definitions out.  This's part of what I consider implicit to D&D and explicit to Burning Wheel.  Two sides of the same coin.  I'll also admit that D&D, in any incarnation rules-wise (now settings, those're a different beast entirely), falls into the same trap that many games do - wishy-washy language.  It relies on being implicit so as to appeal to the widest audience possible.  While this makes good marketing sense, it can lead to difficulties.  By not endorsing a given playstyle (being a broad-strokes rules-set), you lose definition and must rely on whatever tools the players and GM bring to the table.  What's been called 'rules' (social contract/playstyle stuff) versus mechanics (the 'physics' of the game).And you end up supporting the implicit vs. explicit discussion neatly with that very first sentence.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I won't disagree that D&D needs more support in the core set for rewarding roleplaying.  Others will point out that the DMG II has exactly that.  Not having read the DMG, I can't say what's there, though having Robin Laws' name attached is certainly a good mark in its favor.  That Luke incorporated it directly into the core of Burning Wheel is a Good Thing, IMO...but I'll disagree that that inclusion puts BW lightyears ahead of D&D as a system.  The subjectivity of awarding Artha IMO weakens the explicit stance that BW adopts by default, if that makes any sense.  Does that equate to 'BW sucks'?  Hardly.  You have two different models of mechanics and rules headed for the same goal - facilitating the enjoyment of players.  Both games try hard to make sure people have fun.Not in the coreset, no...but a sufficently-talented GM could easily extend the combat rules (as, it seems, Tribe 8 did) to cover social action.  Again, I haven't read Tribe 8's d20 conversion stuff - not a fan of the game, honestly - but it sounds like it aims right down that alley, utilizing the core mechanic (single die resolution versus target number) towards the goal of facilitating roleplay.  I'll bring in a d20 but no D&D product here, too - Spycraft 2.0.  Building upon the fantastic Chase mechanic of the 1st edition, AEG expanded those simple rules (opposed rolls, modifiers, the concept of predator vs. prey and Lead [how much you have an edge over an opponent])  to cover actions that are normally very single-character focused - brainwashing, seduction, interrogation, manhunts and extended infiltration - into a quick, dynamic system that skips the boring stuff and lets people get back to group fun...or allows for very intensive roleplay.  It's explicit about it, along with many, many other situations like skill checks.  Some might say too explicit - there seems to be rules for everything - but I like it.  I very much reccommend at least flipping through a copy to see how d20 has evolved as a system.Nothing wrong with trying to gain advantage, though I think there's d20-derived games (see my SC 2 example above) that do it better.  There's support built in, but again...it's implicit, relying on the players and GM to bring it to the table.  And again, this is (IMO) a failing, because D&D specifically and some d20 games in general try to have rules for everything.  It's nearly schizophernic, sometimes.Burning Wheel, on the other hand, features a social conflict resolution system that closely mirrors the combat system.  Players have “social hit points” and attack each other with maneuvers like Incite, Point, Avoid The Topic, and Rebuttal.  Every turn in Burning Wheel is called an exchange.  In each turn/exchange, there are three volleys.  A player must script in advance each maneuver he will use throughout the three volleys.  Some Wits maneuvers counter other Wits maneuvers and some maneuvers provide an advantage against other maneuvers. For example, I script in advance that in volley 2 I will make a Point.  My opponent has scripted a Rebuttal for volley 2. Unfortunately for me, a Rebuttal counters a Point.  My opponent can use some of the dice in his pool to directly reduce mine.  If he can reduce my successes to zero and nullify my attack, while he uses the remainder of his dice in the pool to attack my undefended “social hit points”.  But why am I spelling it out when you can download the section of the game for free: <a href="http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/dow_95_108.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/dow_95_108.pdf</a></blockquote>[/QUOTE]

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