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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dave Turner" data-source="post: 2794351" data-attributes="member: 12329">Until you put the scare quotes around that final "roleplaying", I think you were heading for a tautology.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />When I read your quoted text, I immediately think of the following alternate version:I'm thinking of D&D's AC system.  Combat in D&D is built primarily on (among a few other things) having a high AC that can defeat to-hit rolls.  The rules of D&D tell me that a good way to raise my AC is to put on armor.  There are certainly other options for raising my AC.  But D&D rewards me when I put armor on my character; my character survives and thrives in the game.This is what game mechanics and rules do.  They reward me for actions I take.  D&D forces me to improve my character's AC to survive.  As a result, my character succeeds when his AC improves.  I'm not sure why you think that this dynamic isn't the same for roleplaying mechanics.  Burning Wheel rewards me for taking actions that are in keeping with my character's stated personality.  Roleplaying is arguably taking actions within a game in keeping with a character's stated personality.  We might disagree over the quality of the roleplaying that is present in any particular game, but can't we agree that roleplaying of some type is taking place?I don't wish to defend the position that having rules/mechanics for roleplaying automatically creates roleplaying like some kind of mathematical algorithim or scientific principle.  Roleplaying is an inherently fuzzy concept and is more art than science.  We can disagree about the precise definition of "roleplaying" but, to paraphrase a famous sentiment about pornography, I think we both generally know it when we see it.  The fact that we're having a discussion about roleplaying without significant confusion shows that there is a common core of understanding that we share.  We might have differing opinions over what constitutes good or bad roleplaying, but I think that roleplaying has enough neutral features to render it broadly recognizable?I don't really see this as a problem per se.  My position in this thread is largely that D&D is not well-suited to promoting roleplay because people have had to struggle "against the odds".  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Again, this shouldn't be misinterpreted as a condemnation of how folks play D&D.  It's a criticism only of the rules of D&D, not anyone's unique experiences with the rules.  I've played D&D in the past and I would play it again in the future.  D&D isn't universally bad.  It's just bad at promoting roleplaying.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />I think the answer is self-evidently "Yes!".  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />First, let me pedantically point out that I referred to gamer psychology, not human psychology.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />Second, I'm not sure how to respond to this.  I can't give you a proof of mathematica rigorousness that Burning Wheel creates roleplaying.  I can only state that Burning Wheel promotes and encourages roleplaying much more than D&D does.  RPGs are a social human endeavor and no game can guarantee that roleplaying will occur.  I guess I would be hard-pressed, but I'd never attempt that argument.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Look, maybe Burning Wheel isn't for you.  It's not for some people and there's nothing wrong with that.  It takes very strong positions on a number of facets of play.  You can rip out the BITs and just use the rest of the system if you like.  You are the boss of you.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />But after many conversations with Luke, it's possible that he might tell you that if you intended to play Burning Wheel without the BITs, he'd tell you not to buy the books and not to play the game.  Luke's free to come by and tell me to shut the hell up and not ruin his sale, of course.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></blockquote>

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