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<blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 9395815" data-attributes="member: 20564">Reading the example you read felt a lot more a question about player authorial control than codified skills - the player was making a statement through the character about the difficulty of fixing the wain.&nbsp; I'm not bringing that up to divert the conversation, but to ask if that is also a facet of the bigger picture of what issue you have with this, perhaps unrealized.When we started playing 3ed, my long-time AD&amp;D 2nd ed DM talked about how it took so much power from the DM because it had rules for everything as opposed to the DM setting difficulties, making rulings, etc.&nbsp; As primarily a player back then I disagreed - it allowed the players to understand the &quot;physics&quot; of the world and be able to plan.&nbsp; Now, I look at the AD&amp;D 2ed -&gt; 3ed as a reduction of &quot;Mother May I&quot; to the DM that was common in early D&amp;D.While &quot;Mother May I&quot; has a negative connotation, at this point in my gaming life I am not a fan of where 3.x ended up in these regards.&nbsp; First it introduced simulation rules over many (many!) books, slowing sessions.&nbsp; &quot;I know there were specific rules about fighting waist deep in water! Where are they!&quot;.&nbsp; Second is codifying to specific abilities or more likely feats things that everyone could try before that, what Snarf called the Thief Problem.&nbsp; (And it was cool hearing that bit of history.)As much as I enjoy crunchy games like Battletech, at this point in terms of RPGs I like lighter, more narrative games in terms of rules, so I guess I am in agreement with GMMichael.Though my reaction to his particular example while GMing a crunchier game would be:&nbsp; &quot;Okay, you think you know the solution.&nbsp; Do you want to implement it and we can roll, or get a second opinion?&quot;&nbsp; The character's abilities are the floor of how competent they are, but in this case pronouncing it easy didn't move that needle nor change the difficulty, and they are good at mentally figuring things out but don't have any training in this particular skill to know what they don't know which is a key of making assessments, nor have the physicality to carry through well on it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Blue, post: 9395815, member: 20564"] Reading the example you read felt a lot more a question about player authorial control than codified skills - the player was making a statement through the character about the [I]difficulty[/I] of fixing the wain. I'm not bringing that up to divert the conversation, but to ask if that is also a facet of the bigger picture of what issue you have with this, perhaps unrealized. When we started playing 3ed, my long-time AD&D 2nd ed DM talked about how it took so much power from the DM because it had rules for everything as opposed to the DM setting difficulties, making rulings, etc. As primarily a player back then I disagreed - it allowed the players to understand the "physics" of the world and be able to plan. Now, I look at the AD&D 2ed -> 3ed as a reduction of "Mother May I" to the DM that was common in early D&D. While "Mother May I" has a negative connotation, at this point in my gaming life I am not a fan of where 3.x ended up in these regards. First it introduced simulation rules over many (many!) books, slowing sessions. "I know there were specific rules about fighting waist deep in water! Where are they!". Second is codifying to specific abilities or more likely feats things that everyone could try before that, what Snarf called the Thief Problem. (And it was cool hearing that bit of history.) As much as I enjoy crunchy games like Battletech, at this point in terms of RPGs I like lighter, more narrative games in terms of rules, so I guess I am in agreement with GMMichael. Though my reaction to his particular example while GMing a crunchier game would be: "Okay, you think you know the solution. Do you want to implement it and we can roll, or get a second opinion?" The character's abilities are the floor of how competent they are, but in this case pronouncing it easy didn't move that needle nor change the difficulty, and they are good at mentally figuring things out but don't have any training in this particular skill to know what they don't know which is a key of making assessments, nor have the physicality to carry through well on it. [/QUOTE]

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