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EXU: Calamity Discussion (Spoilers)
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<blockquote data-quote="overgeeked" data-source="post: 8649025" data-attributes="member: 86653"><p>The more I see people throw this out the more I think they simply mean "this goes against my preferences". Both phrases seem to be utterly meaningless at this point. If you have a point to make, make it without throwing out phrases meant to evoke knee-jerk reactions.</p><p></p><p>Right. And I get the feeling we're seeing a story unfold with a predetermined ending. Nothing the PCs do matters and whatever they do, the end will be the same. It's like Titanic. Sure, the movie is about the relationship between Jack and Rose, which is...interesting...I guess...but at no point does anyone think they have a chance of averting the sinking of the Titanic. At best Calamity will be the story of how these characters deal with the fallout. There's no chance they'll avert it as it's already started. There's no chance they'll win because it's already a historical footnote in the setting. So what meaningful choices to the players get? How they face death? Gee, awesome. </p><p></p><p>Player agency is having the freedom to choose <strong><em>and</em></strong> having those choices matter. If they can't choose, they have no agency. If they can choose, but their choices don't matter, they have no agency. Why do they have to even potentially be able to stop the Calamity? Because it's epic fantasy. </p><p></p><p>Can the players decide to go left when the DM wants them to go right (i.e. no bumpers) and that choice matters (i.e. no quantum ogres)? If not, then the players don't have agency. Can the players come up with a wild plan that short-circuits the DM's plans and the DM will roll with it? If not, then the players don't have agency. </p><p></p><p>The DM saying your characters go here and do these things and stay in this tiny box...oh, but I guess you get to say whatever you want and attack whoever you want during the combats...sorry, no. That's not agency. Not in any real or meaningful sense.</p><p></p><p>Can the players later kill the dragon, resurrect the queen, and restore the capital city? Can the players later stop new zombies from raising...undo the magic that's causing it? If not, then no, they don't have agency. That's the point about agency. If you can't do X, then X is the limit of your agency. You have agency...except X. The more things you pile into the "you can't" category, the less agency the players have. If everything is in the "you can't" category except "dialogue" and "picking targets"...that's not agency in any real or meaningful sense of the word. Can the characters build and destroy parts of the world? That's agency. Can the players kill the big bad before you want them to? That's agency. Can the players decide to leave the tiny box you have pre-determined will be where your story unfolds? That's agency. If the players can't go where they want and do what they want, they don't really have agency. </p><p></p><p>To me, the whole point of RPGs is player agency. Video games have better graphics and have infinitely better writing than modules and whatever improv dialogue the DM can get out. Film, TV, novels, and short stories have infinitely better writing and story than adventure modules or whatever the DM can cobble together. Trying to emulate those other art forms is a fool's errand. RPGs are not any of those, they are unique. They have strengths. Lean into those strengths. One of those strengths is the ability to go anywhere and do anything. To limit that, to tear that out so you can badly ape some other art form is certainly a choice a lot of people seem to make, but it's a tragically limiting one.</p><p></p><p>Right. So we already know all the broad strokes of this story. The only thing we can possibly get from this show is 1) minor characters (the PC) RPing how they face the Calamity, or; 2) an alternate reality where the Calamity is averted. </p><p></p><p>To me, 1 is just about pointless while 2 is infinitely more interesting, though there's about a 0% chance that's where they'll go with it. </p><p></p><p>RPGs with pre-determined endings are boring. They're the DM reading a story to the players. That's a waste of everyone's time.</p><p></p><p>RPGs are not stories. They're not fiction. They're games. They're meant to be played as a collaborative effort. Input from everyone. And no, "pick your dialogue" and "pick your targets" is not sufficient input to waste everyone's time getting together to "play" a game. The stuff you're saying absolutely would be interesting...as a story to read. As a comic to read. Because they can make for good stories. RPGs are not stories. The DM is not a storyteller in the same sense that Stephen King is a storyteller. In an RPG the players have agency and self-determination they get to control something the DM does not, the PCs. If King wants a character to run into a burning house, he writes it that way. The DM cannot do the same for the PCs. Not without violating the social contract and the literal reason the players are there in the first place.</p><p></p><p>Then I'd suggest you play more Call of Cthulhu, then. Because that's not generally how those things go down. Your typical CoC adventure is some form of murder-mystery-horror thing where the PCs are sucked into events beyond their comprehension and they must quickly piece things together to survive...most often don't...and as they gain knowledge they lose sanity...and in the end they more than likely stop whatever small, local evil is going on...at great cost to themselves...or they die at the local evil's hands. It's rare to non-existant that the local Arkham, MA cult has already summoned all the Great Old Ones a few weeks back and now the PCs must deal with it.</p><p></p><p>Is nihilistic horror not an appropriate style for epic fantasy? Kinda diametrically opposed genres. You'd be far better served playing Call of Cthulhu. D&D will fight you every step of the way...as will the majority of players who are specifically not playing CoC but instead playing D&D...you know, the epic fantasy game of heroes and superheroes saving the day and slaughtering their foes.</p><p></p><p>And we're back to the problem of using D&D for everything and thinking every problem is a nail because you refuse to use any tool other than a hammer.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="overgeeked, post: 8649025, member: 86653"] The more I see people throw this out the more I think they simply mean "this goes against my preferences". Both phrases seem to be utterly meaningless at this point. If you have a point to make, make it without throwing out phrases meant to evoke knee-jerk reactions. Right. And I get the feeling we're seeing a story unfold with a predetermined ending. Nothing the PCs do matters and whatever they do, the end will be the same. It's like Titanic. Sure, the movie is about the relationship between Jack and Rose, which is...interesting...I guess...but at no point does anyone think they have a chance of averting the sinking of the Titanic. At best Calamity will be the story of how these characters deal with the fallout. There's no chance they'll avert it as it's already started. There's no chance they'll win because it's already a historical footnote in the setting. So what meaningful choices to the players get? How they face death? Gee, awesome. Player agency is having the freedom to choose [B][I]and[/I][/B] having those choices matter. If they can't choose, they have no agency. If they can choose, but their choices don't matter, they have no agency. Why do they have to even potentially be able to stop the Calamity? Because it's epic fantasy. Can the players decide to go left when the DM wants them to go right (i.e. no bumpers) and that choice matters (i.e. no quantum ogres)? If not, then the players don't have agency. Can the players come up with a wild plan that short-circuits the DM's plans and the DM will roll with it? If not, then the players don't have agency. The DM saying your characters go here and do these things and stay in this tiny box...oh, but I guess you get to say whatever you want and attack whoever you want during the combats...sorry, no. That's not agency. Not in any real or meaningful sense. Can the players later kill the dragon, resurrect the queen, and restore the capital city? Can the players later stop new zombies from raising...undo the magic that's causing it? If not, then no, they don't have agency. That's the point about agency. If you can't do X, then X is the limit of your agency. You have agency...except X. The more things you pile into the "you can't" category, the less agency the players have. If everything is in the "you can't" category except "dialogue" and "picking targets"...that's not agency in any real or meaningful sense of the word. Can the characters build and destroy parts of the world? That's agency. Can the players kill the big bad before you want them to? That's agency. Can the players decide to leave the tiny box you have pre-determined will be where your story unfolds? That's agency. If the players can't go where they want and do what they want, they don't really have agency. To me, the whole point of RPGs is player agency. Video games have better graphics and have infinitely better writing than modules and whatever improv dialogue the DM can get out. Film, TV, novels, and short stories have infinitely better writing and story than adventure modules or whatever the DM can cobble together. Trying to emulate those other art forms is a fool's errand. RPGs are not any of those, they are unique. They have strengths. Lean into those strengths. One of those strengths is the ability to go anywhere and do anything. To limit that, to tear that out so you can badly ape some other art form is certainly a choice a lot of people seem to make, but it's a tragically limiting one. Right. So we already know all the broad strokes of this story. The only thing we can possibly get from this show is 1) minor characters (the PC) RPing how they face the Calamity, or; 2) an alternate reality where the Calamity is averted. To me, 1 is just about pointless while 2 is infinitely more interesting, though there's about a 0% chance that's where they'll go with it. RPGs with pre-determined endings are boring. They're the DM reading a story to the players. That's a waste of everyone's time. RPGs are not stories. They're not fiction. They're games. They're meant to be played as a collaborative effort. Input from everyone. And no, "pick your dialogue" and "pick your targets" is not sufficient input to waste everyone's time getting together to "play" a game. The stuff you're saying absolutely would be interesting...as a story to read. As a comic to read. Because they can make for good stories. RPGs are not stories. The DM is not a storyteller in the same sense that Stephen King is a storyteller. In an RPG the players have agency and self-determination they get to control something the DM does not, the PCs. If King wants a character to run into a burning house, he writes it that way. The DM cannot do the same for the PCs. Not without violating the social contract and the literal reason the players are there in the first place. Then I'd suggest you play more Call of Cthulhu, then. Because that's not generally how those things go down. Your typical CoC adventure is some form of murder-mystery-horror thing where the PCs are sucked into events beyond their comprehension and they must quickly piece things together to survive...most often don't...and as they gain knowledge they lose sanity...and in the end they more than likely stop whatever small, local evil is going on...at great cost to themselves...or they die at the local evil's hands. It's rare to non-existant that the local Arkham, MA cult has already summoned all the Great Old Ones a few weeks back and now the PCs must deal with it. Is nihilistic horror not an appropriate style for epic fantasy? Kinda diametrically opposed genres. You'd be far better served playing Call of Cthulhu. D&D will fight you every step of the way...as will the majority of players who are specifically not playing CoC but instead playing D&D...you know, the epic fantasy game of heroes and superheroes saving the day and slaughtering their foes. And we're back to the problem of using D&D for everything and thinking every problem is a nail because you refuse to use any tool other than a hammer. [/QUOTE]
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