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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 4047715" data-attributes="member: 18">You see, you don't understand &quot;this mentality&quot; (whatever that means precisely), because, no snark intended, you didn't actually read what I was asking for.I'm specifically asking for guidelines to tell me when, if ever, 20 Ogres will be the equivalent challenge for 5 level X PCs, to 20 Goblins for 5 level 1 PCs. Do you see what I'm asking for here? I want guidelines that suggest the transition of monster from &quot;elite&quot; to &quot;normal&quot; to &quot;minion&quot;, and I want to be able to build a challenge with a fight that is mostly minions. If it's not a challenge, then that's not what I'm asking for.I see from your second post that you remain confused about this. I like encounters with large numbers of &quot;relatively weak&quot; monsters that are still challenging. 3E was very very bad at providing this (the CR system falling apart exponentially with any encounter involving more than about six things, in my experience), in my opinion. I hope 4E will be better at this sort of thing, because it happens a lot in the sort of fiction I like, and in the sort of campaigns I'd like to run.Hella_Tellah - Sorry, too many implied (or outright) playstyle/gm insults in there, I'm not going to argue with you about 3E encouraging precisely balanced encounters. We both know that it did. Most of the time, in my experience, that one got a really &quot;exciting&quot; fight in 3E out of a pre-gen adventure, it was because the CR of the monster was grotesquely out-of-whack (which was not uncommon).Shroomy - I may be misremembering, but most of the older monsters seemed to be vulnerable to things that they weren't in 3E, and you could always just y'know, not use monsters which were immune to things the party didn't have.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 4047715, member: 18"] You see, you don't understand "this mentality" (whatever that means precisely), because, no snark intended, you didn't actually read what I was asking for. I'm specifically asking for guidelines to tell me when, if ever, 20 Ogres will be the equivalent challenge for 5 level X PCs, to 20 Goblins for 5 level 1 PCs. Do you see what I'm asking for here? I want guidelines that suggest the transition of monster from "elite" to "normal" to "minion", and I want to be able to build a challenge with a fight that is mostly minions. If it's not a challenge, then that's not what I'm asking for. I see from your second post that you remain confused about this. I like encounters with large numbers of "relatively weak" monsters that are still challenging. 3E was very very bad at providing this (the CR system falling apart exponentially with any encounter involving more than about six things, in my experience), in my opinion. I hope 4E will be better at this sort of thing, because it happens a lot in the sort of fiction I like, and in the sort of campaigns I'd like to run. [B]Hella_Tellah[/B] - Sorry, too many implied (or outright) playstyle/gm insults in there, I'm not going to argue with you about 3E encouraging precisely balanced encounters. We both know that it did. Most of the time, in my experience, that one got a really "exciting" fight in 3E out of a pre-gen adventure, it was because the CR of the monster was grotesquely out-of-whack (which was not uncommon). [B]Shroomy[/B] - I may be misremembering, but most of the older monsters seemed to be vulnerable to things that they weren't in 3E, and you could always just y'know, not use monsters which were immune to things the party didn't have. [/QUOTE]

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