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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 3631916" data-attributes="member: 22779">I am honestly curious how you do this Shil.&nbsp; If your group has a core caster, either cleric or wizard, they've got access to 7th level spells.&nbsp; That's some very serious firepower - a single Mass Suggestion and most of that group is toasty.&nbsp; Or a&nbsp; Huge Elemental is going to blitz through CR 4 or 5 creatures badly.I ran into this in the World's Largest Dungeon where they threw hordes of Formians and Derro at the 15th level PC's and they didn't even break a sweat.Anyway.Something else to keep in mind is that EL and CR build in some pretty hefty assumptions.&nbsp; The assumption, beyond the 4 core classes also pertains to the die rolls.&nbsp; It's effectively stating that in a standard fight with a standard party with average to hit rolls and average damage rolls, an EL=par encounter should use 20% of the party's resources.The problem of course comes when the dice hit the table.&nbsp; An EL=par encounter can be a cakewalk or it can be a TPK (or nearly) just from a streak of good luck.&nbsp; If the PC's surprise an encounter, make some decent attacks during the surprise round, and then win initiative in the first round of combat, they just might drop the baddie before it gets a single attack in.&nbsp; OTOH, if the baddie gets surprise, jumps on the rogue with a solid whack, then wins initiative and makes a full attack, suddenly the rogue is a fine red mist settling over the landscape.&nbsp; Add in something like a cleave attack and the baddie has taken a chunk out of a second PC before they've even made a single attack.EL and CR are most certainly not sciences.&nbsp; They are baselines to guestimate how an encounter should fall out, but, don't be surprised when things go pear shaped.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 3631916, member: 22779"] I am honestly curious how you do this Shil. If your group has a core caster, either cleric or wizard, they've got access to 7th level spells. That's some very serious firepower - a single Mass Suggestion and most of that group is toasty. Or a Huge Elemental is going to blitz through CR 4 or 5 creatures badly. I ran into this in the World's Largest Dungeon where they threw hordes of Formians and Derro at the 15th level PC's and they didn't even break a sweat. Anyway. Something else to keep in mind is that EL and CR build in some pretty hefty assumptions. The assumption, beyond the 4 core classes also pertains to the die rolls. It's effectively stating that in a standard fight with a standard party with average to hit rolls and average damage rolls, an EL=par encounter should use 20% of the party's resources. The problem of course comes when the dice hit the table. An EL=par encounter can be a cakewalk or it can be a TPK (or nearly) just from a streak of good luck. If the PC's surprise an encounter, make some decent attacks during the surprise round, and then win initiative in the first round of combat, they just might drop the baddie before it gets a single attack in. OTOH, if the baddie gets surprise, jumps on the rogue with a solid whack, then wins initiative and makes a full attack, suddenly the rogue is a fine red mist settling over the landscape. Add in something like a cleave attack and the baddie has taken a chunk out of a second PC before they've even made a single attack. EL and CR are most certainly not sciences. They are baselines to guestimate how an encounter should fall out, but, don't be surprised when things go pear shaped. [/QUOTE]

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