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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6800361" data-attributes="member: 87792">I've never seen a description of process-sim RPGs that didn't make me think "This person actually wants the sort of play lampooned in Order of the Stick" where the entire physics and social model for the world is thin enough to slip into a hardback book. On the other hand Pathfinder's adventure paths seem to do the opposite of this, and they sell extremely well.5e's design notes were about "uniting the editions" - which is almost explicitly setting out to replicate D&D as its own genre. And this IME is what it tries to do. (It fails miserably at that as far as I'm concerned because my favourite two editions are 4e and the Rules Cyclopaedia, which are editions that set out to do what they intended to, but even 2e isn't using rules to replicate a style).Too much crunch was a big part of it I think - and too little marketing.Very interesting thoughts, thank you <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I've been playing PBTA games recently (far simpler than Burning Wheel) - and Fail Forward is so baked into those rules it doesn't need calling out at all.You were putting the cart before horse. You wouldn't send first level PCs to 200 foot cliff land any more than you'd send them to the Demonweb Pits or to the lairs of elder dragons.That 4e has (a) a level system just like every other version of D&D and that you no more pitch 2000 foot cliffs at first level PCs than you pitch elder dragons at them and (b) in 4e if there is a cliff, due to the more kinaesthetic action the odds are greater that someone is going over it?So if you're saying you're bothered by a level and CR system you should just give up on D&D entirely. If you're bothered that in 4e terrain matters more, I suppose reducing terrain to background colour can be some peoples' thing.</blockquote>

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