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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 6801190" data-attributes="member: 957">I don't think anyone would dispute that the idea of level appropriate challenges has always been around in one form or another.Certainly in 3E and PF, for which I make no secret of my admiration, CR and EL are front and center.  So it would be really stupid to argue that.But you are very much on the right track with the whole "page 42" point and as I just stated the mixing of "guidance" and mechanics in 4E.  There is a double standard of how awesome and innovative these elements of 4E are, until someone points out a flaw and then you get slammed for claiming anyone ever actually used them in 4E games.P flat out said he looked at party level to evaluate the cliff and NC has said he would not send 1st level PCs to a 200 ft cliff any more than he would the Demonwebs.  Not long ago I was honestly feeling chagrined.  I was quite confident that these kind of statements had been made but I was unanimously assured it never happened.  so I conceded.  Now I see it happening here.  I'm *really* not edition warring, I'm being petty over the fact that it turns out I was right all along.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I have no illusion that certain people are going to suddenly open their eyes to different perspectives.  An open-minded 3rd party could come along and read the words and see that the things I claim were said, were in fact said.  That is good enough for me.  So I'll drop it there.Back on topic, I again find "failing forward" to be a highly valuable option for a DM to maintain in their back pocket.   I think that if you start letting the nature of the world be a slave to the mechanics, you are creating a serious negative impact on the fun *for me*.  But there are other ways to work this concept which don't require that.</blockquote>

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