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<blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 6813962" data-attributes="member: 27160"><p>Sorry to be replying to my own post, but I had some further thoughts from this that I think relate to both [MENTION=6803870]grendel111111[/MENTION]'s post this was replying to and [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION]'s post about plot/character driven narratives.</p><p></p><p>If I take a very generic and well established description of "Story", a story is formed as follows:</p><p></p><p>- Start with a protagonist. This is, in a sense, an artificial position, in that a protagonist from one point of view might be an antagonist from another, but from the point of view of the storyteller - and, I think, the roleplayer - there will always be one protagonist. This is simply the character who will take up our next element; the Dramatic Need</p><p></p><p>- The Dramatic Need is the motivation or impulse that drives the protagonist to act. It is the thing they need to get - be it a maguffin, an emotional state, a social position or whatever - in order to be Satisfied. The protagonist seeking after the Dramatic Need is what is going to kick the Story into motion.</p><p></p><p>- Finally, add an Antagonist. This is anyone and anything that acts to prevent the Protagonist having the Dramatic Need. It might be a character, it might be a force of nature, it might even be within the Protagonist's own mind. Its job is to create difficulties and conflict.</p><p></p><p>Now, in just about any roleplaying game, the "story" is told from the perspective of the player characters. This applies even if "stroytelling" is not the primary (or even a major) focus of play, because even as we live our own lives, we naturally fill the role of "Protagonist" in our own (auto)biographies. It's just the point of view we are born with.</p><p></p><p>Now let's consider how pre-authoring and "scenario design" fits with this.</p><p></p><p>If we take a typical "Adventure Path", what we frequently find is that NPCs - typically villains - have already seized a role in the nature of "Protagonist". Professor Evil is engaged in a scheme that, should he bring it to completion, will fill the world with Bad... The "initiating protagonist" has already manifested a "dramatic need" to seize power and destroy all that is peaceful and good (or whatever). The PCs enter this story by becoming "Protagonists via antagonism", in a sense, in that their Dramatic Need is expected to be "stop Professor Evil". Even in variant cases of this sort of adventure, such as when the baddies have already seized a centre of learning and goodness (such as Gardmore Abbey or the Keep on the Borderlands), the Dramatic Need is presented to the players and they are expected to have their characters adopt it.</p><p></p><p>So much for the "AP extreme". What about sandboxes and the like?</p><p></p><p>It seems to me that a sandbox campaign is in essence a smorgasbord of Dramatic Needs, each similar to those commonly used in adventure paths or involving treasure seeking and the like, for the players to pick from for their character. "Story" in this case will rely on the players picking up one of these Dramatic Needs for their character(s).</p><p></p><p>Even what I'll call "reactive sandboxes" seem to me to rely on the GM guessing or inferring Dramatic Needs that the players will be interested in and adding them to the sandbox smorgasbord.</p><p></p><p>What I begin to see as distinctive in what [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] are talking about is that it is the <em>players</em> that are expected to provide the Dramatic Needs. Their range of options in this respect is not limited to those placed on the table by the GM; they are bounded only by the Social Contract that surrounds play. By having rules that explicitly say:</p><p></p><p>Success = success in progressing towards your chosen Dramatic Need</p><p>Failure = an obstacle or roadblock in the path toward your chosen Dramatic Need</p><p></p><p>...I see the players as being able to set not only the Protagonist (which is pretty universal in RPGs) but also the Dramatic Need (which is controlled by the GM when pre-authoring is happening) and thereby something about the nature of the Antagonist(s).</p><p></p><p>This, I think, might be the nub of what the mustard-keen "fail forwardites" are expressing. I think it is not a panacea, personally. Sometimes players do not <em>want</em> to have control over Dramatic Needs; sometimes they find it preferable to pick from a smorgasbord (or even have the Dramatic Need handed to them) rather than have to create something from whole cloth. Nevertheless, I cannot but agree that the freedom of (self) expression given by the ability to set the Dramatic Need (and thus substantially determine the theme of the plot) is fundamentally different in play than any of the "provided Dramatic Need" alternatives that form the bulk of "mainstream roleplaying".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Balesir, post: 6813962, member: 27160"] Sorry to be replying to my own post, but I had some further thoughts from this that I think relate to both [MENTION=6803870]grendel111111[/MENTION]'s post this was replying to and [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION]'s post about plot/character driven narratives. If I take a very generic and well established description of "Story", a story is formed as follows: - Start with a protagonist. This is, in a sense, an artificial position, in that a protagonist from one point of view might be an antagonist from another, but from the point of view of the storyteller - and, I think, the roleplayer - there will always be one protagonist. This is simply the character who will take up our next element; the Dramatic Need - The Dramatic Need is the motivation or impulse that drives the protagonist to act. It is the thing they need to get - be it a maguffin, an emotional state, a social position or whatever - in order to be Satisfied. The protagonist seeking after the Dramatic Need is what is going to kick the Story into motion. - Finally, add an Antagonist. This is anyone and anything that acts to prevent the Protagonist having the Dramatic Need. It might be a character, it might be a force of nature, it might even be within the Protagonist's own mind. Its job is to create difficulties and conflict. Now, in just about any roleplaying game, the "story" is told from the perspective of the player characters. This applies even if "stroytelling" is not the primary (or even a major) focus of play, because even as we live our own lives, we naturally fill the role of "Protagonist" in our own (auto)biographies. It's just the point of view we are born with. Now let's consider how pre-authoring and "scenario design" fits with this. If we take a typical "Adventure Path", what we frequently find is that NPCs - typically villains - have already seized a role in the nature of "Protagonist". Professor Evil is engaged in a scheme that, should he bring it to completion, will fill the world with Bad... The "initiating protagonist" has already manifested a "dramatic need" to seize power and destroy all that is peaceful and good (or whatever). The PCs enter this story by becoming "Protagonists via antagonism", in a sense, in that their Dramatic Need is expected to be "stop Professor Evil". Even in variant cases of this sort of adventure, such as when the baddies have already seized a centre of learning and goodness (such as Gardmore Abbey or the Keep on the Borderlands), the Dramatic Need is presented to the players and they are expected to have their characters adopt it. So much for the "AP extreme". What about sandboxes and the like? It seems to me that a sandbox campaign is in essence a smorgasbord of Dramatic Needs, each similar to those commonly used in adventure paths or involving treasure seeking and the like, for the players to pick from for their character. "Story" in this case will rely on the players picking up one of these Dramatic Needs for their character(s). Even what I'll call "reactive sandboxes" seem to me to rely on the GM guessing or inferring Dramatic Needs that the players will be interested in and adding them to the sandbox smorgasbord. What I begin to see as distinctive in what [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] are talking about is that it is the [I]players[/I] that are expected to provide the Dramatic Needs. Their range of options in this respect is not limited to those placed on the table by the GM; they are bounded only by the Social Contract that surrounds play. By having rules that explicitly say: Success = success in progressing towards your chosen Dramatic Need Failure = an obstacle or roadblock in the path toward your chosen Dramatic Need ...I see the players as being able to set not only the Protagonist (which is pretty universal in RPGs) but also the Dramatic Need (which is controlled by the GM when pre-authoring is happening) and thereby something about the nature of the Antagonist(s). This, I think, might be the nub of what the mustard-keen "fail forwardites" are expressing. I think it is not a panacea, personally. Sometimes players do not [I]want[/I] to have control over Dramatic Needs; sometimes they find it preferable to pick from a smorgasbord (or even have the Dramatic Need handed to them) rather than have to create something from whole cloth. Nevertheless, I cannot but agree that the freedom of (self) expression given by the ability to set the Dramatic Need (and thus substantially determine the theme of the plot) is fundamentally different in play than any of the "provided Dramatic Need" alternatives that form the bulk of "mainstream roleplaying". [/QUOTE]
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