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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6819411" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>What's your evidence that there are Burning Wheel, or Dungeon World, campaigns out there that involve railroading? Where are they? How does the railroading work? If, when the players succeed on a check then the fiction is changed in the manner they declared, how is the railroading coming in? What device does the GM use to stop the fiction changing in that way?</p><p></p><p>There is no need for pre-authored content to contradict the GM! All the players have to do is succeed on their checks. For instance, in the instance of the mace: if the players had succeeded on the Scavenging check, they would have found the mace. In the instance of the waterhole, if the players had succeed on the orienteering (Song of Paths and Ways) check, the waterhole would have been filled with pure water. In other words, there is no need for pre-authored fiction to constrain the GM when the rules of the game establish that if the check succeeds then both intent and task are realised! The only reason you're even thinking about the need for pre-authorship as a constraint on the GM is because you're not thinking of success on checks as meaning intent, as well as task, succeeds; which is to say, you're not thinking in the mechanical framework that is typical of the games that make a self-conscious point of advocating "fail forward" as a technique.</p><p></p><p>Look at actual threads and discussions around railroading. (I've read and participated in plenty.) They involve GMs who already have a conception of what the shared fiction and the story will be, and who manipulate the action resolution mechanics to achieve that end.</p><p></p><p>There are certainly sandbox GMs who don't have a conception of what the story will be, and run primarily exploratory games in which players take their PCs through the sandbox. But these games don't have the mechanisms and structures to reliably generate story (in the strong, literary/dramatic sense of that word). That's why designers like Luke Crane, Ron Edwards etc tried to self-consciously articulate alternative techniques, of which "fail forward" is one aspect.</p><p></p><p>No. It implies that a pre-authored game either contains railroading or lacks story (in the strong sense). In lieu of story, there is exploration and discovery. In lieu of the narrative dynamics generated by "fail forward" as a technique, there is the players exploring and unravelling the puzzle of the setting.</p><p></p><p>There's a reason that designers like Luke Crane, Robin Laws etc wrote the games that they wrote. It was because they found that "traditional" or "conventional" pre-authored RPG setting didn't produce story (in the strong sense) without railroading. That's why their techniques have got no relevance to those modes of play (eg Gygaxian dungeon-crawling; Runequest setting exploration; etc) in which story is not a goal of play (except perhaps as an after-the-event, emergent byproduct with participants' retellings of the events of play).</p><p></p><p>Thus, for instance, all the people who say that RPGing is different from novels and films, in that story is not achievable in the same way without railroading - they are rejecting "fail forward" and associated techniques, and advocating for setting exploration instead. The advocates of "fail forward" and associated techniques, on the other hand, are out to prove those people wrong by achieving story in their RPGs without railroading.</p><p></p><p>(By the way, in a recent fudging thread you yourself have posted that you manipulate dice rolls from time to time to ensure the preservation of narrative dynamics. To me, that seems kind of relevant to this discussion.)</p><p></p><p>This is weird. As soon as the player writes down the conviction for his/her PC that "My brother is my hero", <em>of course</em> the GM comes up with the idea that the brother might be a fallen hero. That's the whole point!</p><p></p><p>Just as, in my BW game, when one of the players writes down the Belief that for his PC that "I will redeem my brother who has been possessed by a balrog", I have in mind the possibility that the brother was fallen <em>before</em> the balrog possessed him.</p><p></p><p>That was [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s point: having those ideas isn't GM bias against the player, it's a basic premise of this sort of game. That's how you ensure that the game will have story (in the strong sense, of a dramatic, character-driven narrative) rather than a focus on exploration and discovery.</p><p></p><p>But where's the railroad? What is the nature of the brother in the imaginary DitV scenario? We don't know, because no actions have been declared and resolved.</p><p></p><p>What is the nature of the brother in my (non-imaginary) BW game? We don't know. How did the black arrows get there? And supposing they <em>were</em> made by the brother, why? And what does that tell us about him?</p><p></p><p>It's all up for grabs.</p><p></p><p>The story is not pre-written. No one knows how it is going to end. Certainly not me!</p><p></p><p>No different how? For me, they're quite different. Rules are consensually chosen, and create the framework in which the shared fiction is established. Unilateral (and moreso secret) pre-auhtoring by the GM has a different character altogether.</p><p></p><p>At what point? In advance, and it's still pre-authoring (but home brew rather than pre-packaged). My point is that the details of GH, as it figures in my BW game, won't be known until the game is actually played, at the table.</p><p></p><p>You don't use "fail forward" in the sense that that term was coined by Crane, Edwards, Tweet etc. This became clear in the discussion around Mt Pudding.</p><p></p><p>There may be some other sense of "fail forward" in which you use the technique, but (i) I'm not 100% sure what that is - perhaps that you don't insist on just one solution to a problem with which you confront the PCs? - and (ii) that doesn't have much bearing on the nature or relevance of the technique that is promoted by designers like Crane, Edwards, Tweet, Robin Laws etc.</p><p></p><p>That last phrase is oxymoronic. You can't pre-author something in the moment. Either you pre-author it. Or you author it in the moment.</p><p></p><p>The <em>not existing in advance</em> is utterly key. That's the whole point! And I absolutely claim that the same limitation might be problematic if pre-authored but not problematic if authored in the moment. Again, that's the whole point! The issue is not about <em>content</em> of the shared fiction; it's about the process and method of generating it.</p><p></p><p>To give a concrete example: it makes a huge difference to me that the absence of the mace from the ruined tower is the result of a failed check by the players, rather than something I stipulated in advance.</p><p></p><p>"Fail forward", in the sense in which the designers who coined the term and articulated the notion use it, has a lot to do with pre-authoring. It is about the GM narrating failure in a manner which preserves dramatic dynamism, while placing the PC in an undesired situation. That means having the fiction sufficiently loose or unspecified that the new, adverse circumstances can be narrated without contradicting what has gone before. That, in turn, means avoiding certain types of pre-authoring.</p><p></p><p>For instance, if every interesting property of the angel feather is pre-authored, then I don't have the scope to narrate the failed Aura Reading check as discovering that the feather is cursed. If every interesting property of the mace is pre-authored, then I don't have the scope to decide, after the attempt to find it fails, that it is in the hands of the dark elf. If everything about the waterhole is pre-authored, then I don't have the scope to say, if the orienteering check succeeds, that the PCs made it to the tower finding plenty of fresh water on the way, while if the check fails saying that the PCs arrive at the waterhole only to find it fouled.</p><p></p><p>These are all concrete, actual play illustrations of the centrality, to "fail forward" as a technique advocated by those designers, for their games, depends upon a certain lack of pre-authoring.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6819411, member: 42582"] What's your evidence that there are Burning Wheel, or Dungeon World, campaigns out there that involve railroading? Where are they? How does the railroading work? If, when the players succeed on a check then the fiction is changed in the manner they declared, how is the railroading coming in? What device does the GM use to stop the fiction changing in that way? There is no need for pre-authored content to contradict the GM! All the players have to do is succeed on their checks. For instance, in the instance of the mace: if the players had succeeded on the Scavenging check, they would have found the mace. In the instance of the waterhole, if the players had succeed on the orienteering (Song of Paths and Ways) check, the waterhole would have been filled with pure water. In other words, there is no need for pre-authored fiction to constrain the GM when the rules of the game establish that if the check succeeds then both intent and task are realised! The only reason you're even thinking about the need for pre-authorship as a constraint on the GM is because you're not thinking of success on checks as meaning intent, as well as task, succeeds; which is to say, you're not thinking in the mechanical framework that is typical of the games that make a self-conscious point of advocating "fail forward" as a technique. Look at actual threads and discussions around railroading. (I've read and participated in plenty.) They involve GMs who already have a conception of what the shared fiction and the story will be, and who manipulate the action resolution mechanics to achieve that end. There are certainly sandbox GMs who don't have a conception of what the story will be, and run primarily exploratory games in which players take their PCs through the sandbox. But these games don't have the mechanisms and structures to reliably generate story (in the strong, literary/dramatic sense of that word). That's why designers like Luke Crane, Ron Edwards etc tried to self-consciously articulate alternative techniques, of which "fail forward" is one aspect. No. It implies that a pre-authored game either contains railroading or lacks story (in the strong sense). In lieu of story, there is exploration and discovery. In lieu of the narrative dynamics generated by "fail forward" as a technique, there is the players exploring and unravelling the puzzle of the setting. There's a reason that designers like Luke Crane, Robin Laws etc wrote the games that they wrote. It was because they found that "traditional" or "conventional" pre-authored RPG setting didn't produce story (in the strong sense) without railroading. That's why their techniques have got no relevance to those modes of play (eg Gygaxian dungeon-crawling; Runequest setting exploration; etc) in which story is not a goal of play (except perhaps as an after-the-event, emergent byproduct with participants' retellings of the events of play). Thus, for instance, all the people who say that RPGing is different from novels and films, in that story is not achievable in the same way without railroading - they are rejecting "fail forward" and associated techniques, and advocating for setting exploration instead. The advocates of "fail forward" and associated techniques, on the other hand, are out to prove those people wrong by achieving story in their RPGs without railroading. (By the way, in a recent fudging thread you yourself have posted that you manipulate dice rolls from time to time to ensure the preservation of narrative dynamics. To me, that seems kind of relevant to this discussion.) This is weird. As soon as the player writes down the conviction for his/her PC that "My brother is my hero", [I]of course[/I] the GM comes up with the idea that the brother might be a fallen hero. That's the whole point! Just as, in my BW game, when one of the players writes down the Belief that for his PC that "I will redeem my brother who has been possessed by a balrog", I have in mind the possibility that the brother was fallen [I]before[/I] the balrog possessed him. That was [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s point: having those ideas isn't GM bias against the player, it's a basic premise of this sort of game. That's how you ensure that the game will have story (in the strong sense, of a dramatic, character-driven narrative) rather than a focus on exploration and discovery. But where's the railroad? What is the nature of the brother in the imaginary DitV scenario? We don't know, because no actions have been declared and resolved. What is the nature of the brother in my (non-imaginary) BW game? We don't know. How did the black arrows get there? And supposing they [I]were[/I] made by the brother, why? And what does that tell us about him? It's all up for grabs. The story is not pre-written. No one knows how it is going to end. Certainly not me! No different how? For me, they're quite different. Rules are consensually chosen, and create the framework in which the shared fiction is established. Unilateral (and moreso secret) pre-auhtoring by the GM has a different character altogether. At what point? In advance, and it's still pre-authoring (but home brew rather than pre-packaged). My point is that the details of GH, as it figures in my BW game, won't be known until the game is actually played, at the table. You don't use "fail forward" in the sense that that term was coined by Crane, Edwards, Tweet etc. This became clear in the discussion around Mt Pudding. There may be some other sense of "fail forward" in which you use the technique, but (i) I'm not 100% sure what that is - perhaps that you don't insist on just one solution to a problem with which you confront the PCs? - and (ii) that doesn't have much bearing on the nature or relevance of the technique that is promoted by designers like Crane, Edwards, Tweet, Robin Laws etc. That last phrase is oxymoronic. You can't pre-author something in the moment. Either you pre-author it. Or you author it in the moment. The [I]not existing in advance[/I] is utterly key. That's the whole point! And I absolutely claim that the same limitation might be problematic if pre-authored but not problematic if authored in the moment. Again, that's the whole point! The issue is not about [I]content[/I] of the shared fiction; it's about the process and method of generating it. To give a concrete example: it makes a huge difference to me that the absence of the mace from the ruined tower is the result of a failed check by the players, rather than something I stipulated in advance. "Fail forward", in the sense in which the designers who coined the term and articulated the notion use it, has a lot to do with pre-authoring. It is about the GM narrating failure in a manner which preserves dramatic dynamism, while placing the PC in an undesired situation. That means having the fiction sufficiently loose or unspecified that the new, adverse circumstances can be narrated without contradicting what has gone before. That, in turn, means avoiding certain types of pre-authoring. For instance, if every interesting property of the angel feather is pre-authored, then I don't have the scope to narrate the failed Aura Reading check as discovering that the feather is cursed. If every interesting property of the mace is pre-authored, then I don't have the scope to decide, after the attempt to find it fails, that it is in the hands of the dark elf. If everything about the waterhole is pre-authored, then I don't have the scope to say, if the orienteering check succeeds, that the PCs made it to the tower finding plenty of fresh water on the way, while if the check fails saying that the PCs arrive at the waterhole only to find it fouled. These are all concrete, actual play illustrations of the centrality, to "fail forward" as a technique advocated by those designers, for their games, depends upon a certain lack of pre-authoring. [/QUOTE]
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