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<blockquote data-quote="innerdude" data-source="post: 6819537" data-attributes="member: 85870"><p>I think some of the confusion that's arising, @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=23751" target="_blank">Maxperson</a></u></strong></em>, is what the conception of "story" @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582" target="_blank">pemerton</a></u></strong></em> is referring to here. It's not just the general "something happens," i.e., the characters get to <em>do</em> something, and <em>something else</em> happens as a result. That's just general "scene framing" put into motion. </p><p></p><p>He's talking about "story" in the Forge-ist sense---the idea that character's dramatic needs, the needs and goals generated through the act of player PC creation, are the PRIMARY force for action in the fiction. If the GM's "backstory" or "setting" or NPC motivations, or whatever, aren't purposefully molded around the PC's stated goals, it's not generating "story" in the manner in which @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582" target="_blank">pemerton</a></u></strong></em> is describing. </p><p></p><p>What are the practical implications of actually trying to produce "story" in this sense? It means, as we've been discussing for 94 pages of forum threads now, that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the GM's conception of the "fiction" is 100% absolute. To really produce this kind of play, the GM has to be willing to do 180 degree turns on previously "pre-authored" elements <em>because that's what the story, as defined by the PCs dramatic needs, requires.</em></p><p></p><p>It requires, as a GM, that you CANNOT hold claim to ANYTHING as being "sacred" in terms of backstory. And a LOT of GMs have a problem with that when they've put a lot of work into generating a setting, a backstory, etc. </p><p></p><p>This is the point on which "no myth" and "nothing in the fiction is real until it comes up in play and the PCs interact with it" hinges. If it becomes necessary to completely wipe the slate with a piece of the "fiction" as previously conceived and re-draw it <em>in that moment</em> because that's what the PCs dramatic needs requires, then that's what happens.</p><p></p><p>It means being willing, as a GM, to completely re-write, on the fly, WHAT may be present in a scene frame, WHY it is there in the scene frame, and WHAT ELSE it interacted with to get there.</p><p></p><p>And there are assuredly risks in playing this way. The biggest one, which has already been identified, is that it creates muddy areas where keeping the fiction coherent/consistent can be problematic if the GM and players aren't on the same page. And it puts an awful lot of pressure on the GM to be creative and flexible. To meet this level of creativity and flexibility, it requires the GM to have either an absolute, comprehensive rules mastery if it's a heavy-crunch system, or it requires a system that alleviates these pressures. </p><p></p><p>And as [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] is describing, it helps when the system itself (Burning Wheel) is mechanically designed to compel both GMs and players to adhere to this playstyle.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="innerdude, post: 6819537, member: 85870"] I think some of the confusion that's arising, @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=23751"]Maxperson[/URL][/U][/B][/I], is what the conception of "story" @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582"]pemerton[/URL][/U][/B][/I] is referring to here. It's not just the general "something happens," i.e., the characters get to [I]do[/I] something, and [I]something else[/I] happens as a result. That's just general "scene framing" put into motion. He's talking about "story" in the Forge-ist sense---the idea that character's dramatic needs, the needs and goals generated through the act of player PC creation, are the PRIMARY force for action in the fiction. If the GM's "backstory" or "setting" or NPC motivations, or whatever, aren't purposefully molded around the PC's stated goals, it's not generating "story" in the manner in which @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582"]pemerton[/URL][/U][/B][/I] is describing. What are the practical implications of actually trying to produce "story" in this sense? It means, as we've been discussing for 94 pages of forum threads now, that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the GM's conception of the "fiction" is 100% absolute. To really produce this kind of play, the GM has to be willing to do 180 degree turns on previously "pre-authored" elements [I]because that's what the story, as defined by the PCs dramatic needs, requires.[/I] It requires, as a GM, that you CANNOT hold claim to ANYTHING as being "sacred" in terms of backstory. And a LOT of GMs have a problem with that when they've put a lot of work into generating a setting, a backstory, etc. This is the point on which "no myth" and "nothing in the fiction is real until it comes up in play and the PCs interact with it" hinges. If it becomes necessary to completely wipe the slate with a piece of the "fiction" as previously conceived and re-draw it [I]in that moment[/I] because that's what the PCs dramatic needs requires, then that's what happens. It means being willing, as a GM, to completely re-write, on the fly, WHAT may be present in a scene frame, WHY it is there in the scene frame, and WHAT ELSE it interacted with to get there. And there are assuredly risks in playing this way. The biggest one, which has already been identified, is that it creates muddy areas where keeping the fiction coherent/consistent can be problematic if the GM and players aren't on the same page. And it puts an awful lot of pressure on the GM to be creative and flexible. To meet this level of creativity and flexibility, it requires the GM to have either an absolute, comprehensive rules mastery if it's a heavy-crunch system, or it requires a system that alleviates these pressures. And as [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] is describing, it helps when the system itself (Burning Wheel) is mechanically designed to compel both GMs and players to adhere to this playstyle. [/QUOTE]
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