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<blockquote data-quote="Aenghus" data-source="post: 6821896" data-attributes="member: 2656"><p>However I think the failure modes of conventional RPGs and RPGs designed ground up with fail forward/stakes setting are different.</p><p></p><p>Old RPGs like D&D and World of Darkness are haunted by the spectre of the dictatorial GM, railroading his or her players through a pre-scripted nightmare of deprotagonisation and being deaf to player feedback and complaints, often excommunicating those who dare to question their decisions or authority. There was little recourse to player frustration except leaving the game and finding a better one. The advice in rulebooks tended to be terrible and seemed to be predicated on a flawless infallible and long suffering referee dragging his or her unruly teenage players through RPG boot camp.</p><p></p><p>GM advice has improved over the years, but conventional games tend to lack formal player feedback mechanisms, and so the boogeyman of players of conventional games continues to be terrible GM railroading.</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying conventional games are doomed to bad railroading here, my own game is fairly conventional, though I put a lot of effort into listening to my players and their evolving goals for their PCs and integrating them into my game.</p><p></p><p>Also a talented old style GM with players who wholeheartedly embrace the GM's style of play can have a very fun game, though it may lack certain sorts of player proactivity.</p><p></p><p>Fail forward/stakes setting games generally have a negotiation step where the referee and player must agree on the particulars of the current conflict and set the stakes of success and failure. I suspect that this often is the point where irreconcilable differences are discovered, and that the failure mode should no compromise be found is that the game stalls at that point, or one of the participants leaves. And because players in this mode of play have a certain amount of game authority, they are more used to using it and probably more willing to express their frustrations than passive players might be in a conventional game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aenghus, post: 6821896, member: 2656"] However I think the failure modes of conventional RPGs and RPGs designed ground up with fail forward/stakes setting are different. Old RPGs like D&D and World of Darkness are haunted by the spectre of the dictatorial GM, railroading his or her players through a pre-scripted nightmare of deprotagonisation and being deaf to player feedback and complaints, often excommunicating those who dare to question their decisions or authority. There was little recourse to player frustration except leaving the game and finding a better one. The advice in rulebooks tended to be terrible and seemed to be predicated on a flawless infallible and long suffering referee dragging his or her unruly teenage players through RPG boot camp. GM advice has improved over the years, but conventional games tend to lack formal player feedback mechanisms, and so the boogeyman of players of conventional games continues to be terrible GM railroading. I'm not saying conventional games are doomed to bad railroading here, my own game is fairly conventional, though I put a lot of effort into listening to my players and their evolving goals for their PCs and integrating them into my game. Also a talented old style GM with players who wholeheartedly embrace the GM's style of play can have a very fun game, though it may lack certain sorts of player proactivity. Fail forward/stakes setting games generally have a negotiation step where the referee and player must agree on the particulars of the current conflict and set the stakes of success and failure. I suspect that this often is the point where irreconcilable differences are discovered, and that the failure mode should no compromise be found is that the game stalls at that point, or one of the participants leaves. And because players in this mode of play have a certain amount of game authority, they are more used to using it and probably more willing to express their frustrations than passive players might be in a conventional game. [/QUOTE]
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