Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Failing Forward
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="innerdude" data-source="post: 6826066" data-attributes="member: 85870"><p>LOL @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=205" target="_blank">TwoSix</a></u></strong></em>, yes, we need more angst! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p></p><p>Seriously though, it was really interesting when that article came out like a month ago detailing the first real description of a "fireball" in the pre-Chainmail historical wargame. </p><p></p><p>I've never done a real tracing of D&D's roots. I know there's books, and articles, and whatever else all over the place that go into all of it, but I've never really gotten into it. </p><p></p><p>But that article on pre-Chainmail battle rules opened my eyes, because there's so much about D&D that I always took for granted as just being "natural" or "the way it works," or that someone had thoroughly gone through and vetted the mechanics to work a certain way. </p><p></p><p>And really that wasn't necessarily the case. A lot of what became the game I got under the Christmas tree in 1985 was handed down from wargames <em>and simply passed on because it was what they had</em>. For example, it totally blew my mind when it finally clicked for me (and this was maybe only 3 or 4 months ago) that "hit points" are a relic of wargames that are designed to measure <em>the ability continue remaining effective in combat. </em>They were never really intended or designed to be a measure of a single individual's personal health. They're not measuring wounds, or injuries, or any kind of "health scale"; they exist because in a war game, they represent a unit's ability to remain in the battle. That's it. Hitpoints in war games are at the very least modeling a level of abstraction at least two, possibly three levels above what they're attempting to model in an RPG. </p><p></p><p>So what happens when you evolve combat and other tactical challenges around that basic paradigm to a single, individual character? You get a specific set of functions, or rules, that work within that basic assumption. </p><p></p><p>And it's given me a glimpse of why "Story Now!" became a thing---because it's an attempt to go all the way back and say, "Wait wait wait . . . what if we DON'T start the basic assumptions of how an RPG operates from <em>here </em>and instead assume we should start <em>there</em>." Interestingly, even as much as I'm pushing into a more "fail forward," "No myth" style, I don't know that I'll ever 100% completely embrace "Story Now!" either. For example, I've heard descriptions of stuff like Dogs in the Vineyard, Life With Master, Paranoia, etc., and I honestly can't say I'd have any interest in them. I bought a hardcover copy of Legends of Anglerre because I liked the art, but I don't know that I'll ever try Fate, or that my group would even want to either. </p><p></p><p>I think one of the great things @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582" target="_blank">pemerton</a></u></strong></em> tries to do is to at least get people to look inside their own assumptions a bit about the ways RPG rules work. At the very least to be informed about what their own preferences are doing, the assumptions around them, etc. Even if you don't agree with or see how other people like to run their games, I think there's value in understanding what's happening within the context of your own games.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="innerdude, post: 6826066, member: 85870"] LOL @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=205"]TwoSix[/URL][/U][/B][/I], yes, we need more angst! :p Seriously though, it was really interesting when that article came out like a month ago detailing the first real description of a "fireball" in the pre-Chainmail historical wargame. I've never done a real tracing of D&D's roots. I know there's books, and articles, and whatever else all over the place that go into all of it, but I've never really gotten into it. But that article on pre-Chainmail battle rules opened my eyes, because there's so much about D&D that I always took for granted as just being "natural" or "the way it works," or that someone had thoroughly gone through and vetted the mechanics to work a certain way. And really that wasn't necessarily the case. A lot of what became the game I got under the Christmas tree in 1985 was handed down from wargames [I]and simply passed on because it was what they had[/I]. For example, it totally blew my mind when it finally clicked for me (and this was maybe only 3 or 4 months ago) that "hit points" are a relic of wargames that are designed to measure [I]the ability continue remaining effective in combat. [/I]They were never really intended or designed to be a measure of a single individual's personal health. They're not measuring wounds, or injuries, or any kind of "health scale"; they exist because in a war game, they represent a unit's ability to remain in the battle. That's it. Hitpoints in war games are at the very least modeling a level of abstraction at least two, possibly three levels above what they're attempting to model in an RPG. So what happens when you evolve combat and other tactical challenges around that basic paradigm to a single, individual character? You get a specific set of functions, or rules, that work within that basic assumption. And it's given me a glimpse of why "Story Now!" became a thing---because it's an attempt to go all the way back and say, "Wait wait wait . . . what if we DON'T start the basic assumptions of how an RPG operates from [I]here [/I]and instead assume we should start [I]there[/I]." Interestingly, even as much as I'm pushing into a more "fail forward," "No myth" style, I don't know that I'll ever 100% completely embrace "Story Now!" either. For example, I've heard descriptions of stuff like Dogs in the Vineyard, Life With Master, Paranoia, etc., and I honestly can't say I'd have any interest in them. I bought a hardcover copy of Legends of Anglerre because I liked the art, but I don't know that I'll ever try Fate, or that my group would even want to either. I think one of the great things @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582"]pemerton[/URL][/U][/B][/I] tries to do is to at least get people to look inside their own assumptions a bit about the ways RPG rules work. At the very least to be informed about what their own preferences are doing, the assumptions around them, etc. Even if you don't agree with or see how other people like to run their games, I think there's value in understanding what's happening within the context of your own games. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Failing Forward
Top