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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6826122" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>I'd disagree with [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] that there are no bad DMs out there that railroad in those systems - but only on a technicality. Railroading is a failure mode - but not all systems have the same failure modes. If you picture the failure mode as the car ending up on the hard shoulder, railroading in one of the systems in question is like ending up on the hard shoulder <em>on the wrong side of the motorway</em>.</p><p></p><p>This doesn't mean that the techniques in question are without failure modes - simply that they are normally different ones. The most common failure mode is to end up with an indistinct mess of a game with no texture, aim, or driver because the GM isn't sadistic enough to want to see the players have their characters hurt. The second most common failure mode is to end up with a smudgy palimpsest where players have been using player side establishment to solve all their characters problems and too many people have retconned too much so no one knows about anything and no one's challenged.</p><p></p><p>Neither of those failure modes turn up much with pre-authoring just as railroading doesn't turn up much without pre-authoring.</p><p></p><p>But ultimately we've got some conversations going on at cross purposes here especially between you and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]. We've got no-myth, sandboxes, and adventure paths as three distinct modes of play (and groups of players in a horseshoe shape normally) and we've got Doylist and Watsonian confusion.</p><p></p><p>Adventure Paths are very popular - most of what Paizo puts out is adventure paths, as are the few WotC 5e adventures - and they hinge very much on actual pre-authorship. Most APs are over-sized mcguffin quests where in order to get module 3, the PCs must have done the events in module 2 otherwise it makes no sense. So module 2 is quite literally pre-authored in that the PCs will solve it using method X, set down in advance by an author. And in the worst case the PCs job is to bear witness to the NPCs solving the problems, written by some hack author (or some bad GM) before the PCs have even rolled up their characters.</p><p></p><p>Sandboxes and No-Myth are much closer together - and no-myth is very hard to do IME without rules that go beyond pass/fail (you can do it in 4e and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] does - but I really woudn't care to start there, or to do it in other D&D systems). Both of them utterly reject the idea of writing the ending in advance, and both of them are about challenging the PCs. In the case of sandboxes the challenges are mostly external and driven by the environment or NPCs with their own agendas, while in no-myth play the challenges are much more tailored to who the PCs are and driven by the PCs flaws. And neither of these modes of play produces much railroading as a failure mode (instead it's more aimlessness).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Absolutely. And that's hardly unique to sandboxes - no form of roleplaying will ever not create a story.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Your definition of pre-authoring is meaningless - hence me mentioning the Watsonian/Doylist distinction. John Watson is utterly unable to tell whether that gun mentioned by Sherlock Holmes was always there or whether Arthur Conan Doyle invented it at the last minute. It is only from outside the game perspective that it matters - and only when events <em>in the future</em> (hence pre-authoring) are determined that it is truly pre-authoring.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd also say that half of them I end up fighting the system (incluing every Paizo adventure path if there's a wizard along). The DM can overrule the system;s strengths - but I didn't sign up to fight the system that way.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6826122, member: 87792"] I'd disagree with [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] that there are no bad DMs out there that railroad in those systems - but only on a technicality. Railroading is a failure mode - but not all systems have the same failure modes. If you picture the failure mode as the car ending up on the hard shoulder, railroading in one of the systems in question is like ending up on the hard shoulder [I]on the wrong side of the motorway[/I]. This doesn't mean that the techniques in question are without failure modes - simply that they are normally different ones. The most common failure mode is to end up with an indistinct mess of a game with no texture, aim, or driver because the GM isn't sadistic enough to want to see the players have their characters hurt. The second most common failure mode is to end up with a smudgy palimpsest where players have been using player side establishment to solve all their characters problems and too many people have retconned too much so no one knows about anything and no one's challenged. Neither of those failure modes turn up much with pre-authoring just as railroading doesn't turn up much without pre-authoring. But ultimately we've got some conversations going on at cross purposes here especially between you and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]. We've got no-myth, sandboxes, and adventure paths as three distinct modes of play (and groups of players in a horseshoe shape normally) and we've got Doylist and Watsonian confusion. Adventure Paths are very popular - most of what Paizo puts out is adventure paths, as are the few WotC 5e adventures - and they hinge very much on actual pre-authorship. Most APs are over-sized mcguffin quests where in order to get module 3, the PCs must have done the events in module 2 otherwise it makes no sense. So module 2 is quite literally pre-authored in that the PCs will solve it using method X, set down in advance by an author. And in the worst case the PCs job is to bear witness to the NPCs solving the problems, written by some hack author (or some bad GM) before the PCs have even rolled up their characters. Sandboxes and No-Myth are much closer together - and no-myth is very hard to do IME without rules that go beyond pass/fail (you can do it in 4e and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] does - but I really woudn't care to start there, or to do it in other D&D systems). Both of them utterly reject the idea of writing the ending in advance, and both of them are about challenging the PCs. In the case of sandboxes the challenges are mostly external and driven by the environment or NPCs with their own agendas, while in no-myth play the challenges are much more tailored to who the PCs are and driven by the PCs flaws. And neither of these modes of play produces much railroading as a failure mode (instead it's more aimlessness). Absolutely. And that's hardly unique to sandboxes - no form of roleplaying will ever not create a story. Your definition of pre-authoring is meaningless - hence me mentioning the Watsonian/Doylist distinction. John Watson is utterly unable to tell whether that gun mentioned by Sherlock Holmes was always there or whether Arthur Conan Doyle invented it at the last minute. It is only from outside the game perspective that it matters - and only when events [I]in the future[/I] (hence pre-authoring) are determined that it is truly pre-authoring. I'd also say that half of them I end up fighting the system (incluing every Paizo adventure path if there's a wizard along). The DM can overrule the system;s strengths - but I didn't sign up to fight the system that way. [/QUOTE]
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