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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7202839" data-attributes="member: 996">It's not a counter example.&nbsp; At 1st level, that fighter'd've needed a 17 or something to save vs spells.&nbsp; At 14th or 16th or something, he'd max out as 6.&nbsp;&nbsp; That's a lot of very real improvement, But, unlike 5e, the classic game /did/ assume magic items, and protection items that granted save bonuses were not unusual at all.&nbsp; So the high-level (any double-digit level, really) fighter probably would be making many saves on a 2.&nbsp; (The level of the attacker didn't matter, it could be a 20th level wizard casting Stone to Flesh and the saves would've been the same.)In 5e, saves scale with the level of the attacker, and only a minority of save bonuses do, so you net get worse as you level up.&nbsp;&nbsp; A first level fighter making a save vs a low-level caster's Hold Person might need to roll a 14.&nbsp; The same fighter making a save vs a highl-level caster's Hold Person, might need a natural 20.&nbsp; Take him up to 20th level, himself, nothing changes.&nbsp; Mostly, though, you don't save vs low level enemies at 20th or vs 20th level enemies at first.&nbsp; It can happen, and it would be devastating to be mobbed by by low-level critters that paralyze you on a 13 or worse natural roll when you're 20th level, but you're still not likely to see that happen.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7202839, member: 996"] It's not a counter example. At 1st level, that fighter'd've needed a 17 or something to save vs spells. At 14th or 16th or something, he'd max out as 6. That's a lot of very real improvement, But, unlike 5e, the classic game /did/ assume magic items, and protection items that granted save bonuses were not unusual at all. So the high-level (any double-digit level, really) fighter probably would be making many saves on a 2. (The level of the attacker didn't matter, it could be a 20th level wizard casting Stone to Flesh and the saves would've been the same.) In 5e, saves scale with the level of the attacker, and only a minority of save bonuses do, so you net get worse as you level up. A first level fighter making a save vs a low-level caster's Hold Person might need to roll a 14. The same fighter making a save vs a highl-level caster's Hold Person, might need a natural 20. Take him up to 20th level, himself, nothing changes. Mostly, though, you don't save vs low level enemies at 20th or vs 20th level enemies at first. It can happen, and it would be devastating to be mobbed by by low-level critters that paralyze you on a 13 or worse natural roll when you're 20th level, but you're still not likely to see that happen. [/QUOTE]

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