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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 6991724" data-attributes="member: 6677017">Like I tend to do after a thread gets too long, I skipped part of this thread, so I'm possibly covering ground already covered.Okay, I think I am maybe kind of getting what you are talking about here. I'm still not sure how it relates to the player vs GM control of the scenario that I'm seeing (perhaps incorrectly) you reference.It seems to me that fairy tale logic is incredibly flexible and subjective. There isn't necessarily an obviousness to it that empowers the players and takes decision making weight off the GM. It can shift a lot of the GM's work from up front world creation to scene by scene spontaneous decisions, but I don't think it addresses player agency at all--or if it does it does it the opposite way you see it.In short, I guess what I'm saying is that fairy tale logic is less predictable and learnable than naturalist logic. The only way a player can have more control in such an unpredictable situation is if the DM accepts whatever logic a player proposes and weaves it into the narrative, and there is no reason the DM couldn't do the same thing with world design in a naturalistic world.On the other elements of the discussion...I don't think fairy tale logic is well-suited to a long campaign. It is perfectly suited to a story, or a string of episodic stories with undefined gaps of time between them.In an ongoing campaign most people are just going to eventually start asking the questions that can't be answered by fairy tale logic, because that's normal human thought process. For example, let's say the characters are supposed to be adventuring in the same Land. After a few stories, you just won't be able to stop at least some of the players from beginning to form a mental map, and then questions will come up like, "Wait a minute, I thought you said it was months from the Castle to the Dark Tower, and a week further to the Wasteland, but now you are saying it is only days from the Castle to the Wasteland. I think I'm lost." And there are only so many times you can say, "Yes, you're lost!" before it turns into a farce and they cease to take it seriously.Now, I personally really like using fairy tale logic in some places, whether we are talking about fay realms or short stories. For instance, I designed and ran a ten session theme adventure for my players. They basically started out arriving in a kingdom from different directions in response to a call for heroes to save the day. In the story, there was basically only one road in the kingdom, and one town with the castle, the rest of it seeming to be a combination of cultivated fields, open meadows of flowers, and wilderness. Despite that, the king and queen were all dressed up in full fairy tale monarch clothing, and there was apparently enough commerce to support bandits, while not posing a sufficient threat to the seemingly small population to justify the king mounting a full scale bandit eradication effort. In other words, the kingdom, as described, really worked on fairy tale logic. The adventure was kicked off by a prophecy that basically told them to go all the west on the road to achieve X, and then go east on the road to achieve Y, and that they wouldn't have any time to spare and shouldn't stop. The distance was conveniently exactly what it needed to be for them to not have any time to spare, etc.Would that have worked as part of an ongoing campaign? Absolutely not.But that doesn't mean it can't be part of a consistent world. Because this kingdom was created to be part of my homeworld, it actually does/will have an internal consistency if it ever comes up (ie, if other characters end up in that neck of the woods). This will involve adding additional villages, smaller roads, keeps, etc, that simply "didn't come up" in that fairy tale story, having been glossed over in the background. It won't contradict anything previous established, and ideally won't detract from the flavor of the land. It will, however, basically eliminate the ability to use that part of that kingdom as the setting for a similar fairy tale in the future.So that comes back to the ongoing campaign idea. Part of fairy tale logic requires a good degree of ignorance on the part of the protagonists, but an ongoing campaign automatically involves the acquisition of information about the world. The only way around this would be to have a world that is slippery and ever-changing in such a way that it prevents accumulation of knowledge about it--and that goes beyond fairy tale into surreality. That is why ongoing campaigns aren't generally set in Faerie. It's a fun place to visit, but living there would drive you crazy, unless you were of fay nature yourself, in which case you basically are crazy by human standards.</blockquote>

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