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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6994116" data-attributes="member: 6696971">@<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6677017" target="_blank">Sword of Spirit</a> , thanks for always being congenial and friendly in our conversations.  Even though we're typically on opposite ends of things, you're always a gentle(wo?)man.  Its not typical.  Anyway, on with it.Regarding GM/player latitude, plausible inference (based on fairy tale logic), and bounded results:Games underwritten by (a) (often fairly granular) task resolution, (b) causal logic grounded exclusively (or at least nearly) in worldly empirical observation or experience, and (c) significant GM latitude in adjudication/resolution is going to produce play outcomes with very binary/bounded results.  However, as  @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=2656" target="_blank">Aenghus</a> canvassed above, the marriage of (c) to (b) doesn't necessitate that the relationship of player inference from available information > subsequent player action declaration > GM adjudication will reliably produce results that the table agrees upon (even before we get to the mechanical resolution stage).  As the proxy for their in-character observation and orientation to any given situation, players must rely entirely on (i) the coherency/utility/sincerity of the play conversation and (b) GM: player perception/understanding alignment.  The problem therein is that all sorts of cognitive biases and holes in forensic knowledge base can create an awkward disparity between a/the player(s) and GM.  Their proxy becomes hazy, unreliable.  Immersion recedes while insecurity proliferates.This will typically lessen with time.  Sometimes, folks are miraculously on the same page from the word go.  Sometimes, the social dynamics (the GM is an overwhelming alpha, folks are willing to cede full authority even in disagreement, folks don't take play too seriously, the group is able to solve disputes quickly and amenably) render the above moot.Contrast with typical scene-based games.  They are usually underwritten by (a) a focused play premise, (b) transparent GMing principles/constraints that bind GMing latitude, (c) abstract conflict resolution with play procedures which include stake-setting for the conflict (if the implication isn't overt enough) and telegraphed intent (what I'm trying to accomplish...not just how) during the player action declaration phase, and (d) genre logic.  While they still certainly rely on it, these games fundamentally rely less on GMs as proxy for in-character observation and orientation to any given situation.  Players do have more latitude (that is pretty fundamental) merely because GMs have less.  Micro results within the macro conflict resolution definitely become less bounded (they don't approach anything near binary).  This is actually much of the point of play; "to find out what happens."  "Story NOW" games are meant to have hard-framed scene-openers (Exposition - premise establishment/stake-setting) of which the PCs inherently have buy-in (its stuff they care about - "always go to the action").  Beyond that hard-coded input however, the Rising Action, Climax, Falling Action, and Denouement are entirely up for grabs.  Play is meant to produce a dynamic outcome and attendant play/character fallout whereby if you started over from the scene's opener, you're likely to produce fairly significantly different results (at least micro-results within scene) if you ran it (let us say) 10 times.On the perceived barriers to logical (be it genre or worldly empirical) inference inherent to games underwritten by genre logic, let us consider the small component of the scene upthread.  The PC goal in that scene was to gain audience with the absent king and successfully beseech him to lead the beating back of the siege.What you (meaning you SoS) aren't aware of is that the (typically revered, stalwart, and industrious) king has been curiously missing in action as his city has been besieged by a dragon and its forces.  Rumors swirled that the queen was on her deathbed (or had already passed) and the enemy of his grief was more implacable than an orc horde.  In his stead, his War Council, Court Mage, and Chamberlain have been running affairs.  As the PCs arrive, things aren't going well and there is momentum gaining to surrender.  In the course of play, several other things have come to pass since the PCs arrived which cemented the fact that there is a conspirator in the city's power structure including the aforementioned Chamberlain revealed to be a flesh golem.  As all sorts of calamity ensues, two PCs rush to the king's quarters while the other two PCs confront the Court Mage in the Royal Gardens.  Mechanically, we are near the end of our conflict.  Here is the situation in the fiction:* The king is asleep but clearly afflicted by something that is causing his life force to ebb.  Among other things,  @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582" target="_blank">pemerton</a> 's PC is a Paladin.  He is imbued with Divine power to take on the ailments/burdens of others, mending their spirits and their bodies in the transference.  Presumably, pemerton intuited that either (1) the king is dying and perhaps I can save him or (2) the king is possessed/haunted by some unseeable force and perhaps I can cast it out.  He is successful, mechanically, in his efforts.So here I am as GM.  Would the holy touch of a divinity-imbued Paladin cast out the spirit of a haunting Night Hag from a purely empirical perspective?  Who the hell knows?  Maybe?  Likely?  What I do know though...is THAT IS AWESOME and genre appropriate.  So, of course, he does.He could have inferred and declared any of the following actions:* This guy is a big faker!!!!  He isn't sleeping!  He's just playing jokes!  I start cracking jokes to see if I can get him to giggle!  A pirate walks into a bar with a steering wheel on his pants, a peg leg and a parrot on his shoulder. The bartender says, "Hey, you've got a steering wheel on your pants."The pirate says, "Arrrr, I know. It's driving me nuts."  (Rolls Streetwise)* I'm going to clean and jerk the bed with the king in it!  Maybe my mighty lifts will inspire the king to wake the hell up and lead the charge!  (Rolls Athletics)* Oh crap!  The old man just needs a nap.  On my honor I will not be cause to his continued weariness!  We tiptoe to the balcony and take a load off until he wakes up.  (Rolls Stealth)I don't know about you, but I don't think that is a coincidence <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />ps - We can discuss the next part afterward, but lets focus on this first.  Also, I can link some other play examples of Dungeon World if this one doesn't suffice.EDIT - Nevermind breaking down the second part.   @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582" target="_blank">pemerton</a> and I cross-posted and he analyzed that!</blockquote>

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