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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ripzerai" data-source="post: 3341005" data-attributes="member: 38324">You gave a quite elaborate example, which is what I was responding to. If you didn't mean to necessarily endorse the example, but instead had something else in mind, I suppose it's my fault for taking the post at face value. However, perhaps you can see why I thought that the example in your second paragraph was intended to illustrate exactly what you meant by "inhuman."You suggested that their allotment of free will was used up at the beginning of time, and can no longer be used until after the Final Judgment. Effectively, that means they have no ability to freely choose their moral status in the present day.While they may be able to choose to turn left rather than right, or elect to throw the Best of Queen compilation out of their cars rather than listen to it, that's not the sort of free will that is under contention.If incarnated pain is sapient and capable of understanding mortal drives and desires - and I think it would have to be, in order to be an effective tempter - then there is inevitably going to be some friction between what the fiend is and what it's capable of becoming. They are not necessarily people to start out with, not in any meaningful sense - if they were ever once mortal souls, most of their humanity has been burnt away. But at the same time, they're more than mere automatons, more than mere tools to be used against the abstract force of Good. They're sophisticated creatures, intelligent enough to seek out means to their desired ends that may be indirect and, yes, counterintuitive. Can a newly created fiend experience love? Surely not. What of one that has spent millennia interacting with mortals, living among them as it sends one after another spiraling into depravity? Such a being is a more interesting case; even as it learns more and more about what it is to be evil, it also inescapably learns about good.Is a being that is incarnate Mercy (and I agree with you on that issue) or Forgiveness capable of hatred or pride? Is a being that is incarnate Love capable of causing pain? Is a being that is incarnate Justice capable of Wrath? Perhaps none of these things comes easily to such beings, but I would argue that the answer is yes. The converse, then, is equally true.That was well and good for Satan, but they don't all get to reign, do they? Although I suppose there's a nice Existentialist theme in knowingly choosing a futile path leading to ultimate destruction for the sake of making a point. Insofar as the lesser Fallen were content merely with not serving, even if reigning wasn't an option, Satan's declaration is really about Law and Chaos, not Good and Evil at all. You misunderstood me, or missed the context of my argument. The point you were making was about mythic resonance, about the visceral reaction we get from seeing mythic motifs. I wasn't arguing that counterintuitive ideas should automatically be dismissed - I wouldn't dismiss either scientific or theological arguments based on that alone. I was arguing, instead, that counterintuitive ideas lack, by their very nature, the resonance you were seeking.The issue is complex, because I simultaneously tried to challenge your post on multiple levels, from the theological to the literary to issues of continuity with the game universe to pragmatic issues of game play. I'd rather I had stuck to a single argument, in retrospect. In any case, I wasn't saying that the argument lacked theological validity due to its counterintuitive nature. I'm just saying that it lacks mythic flair.I would argue that we have. I'm not proposing vacuous name-dropping for its own sake, but that names are one ingredient among many. However, I do think that some of esoteric theological baggage can and should be dropped when transporting ideas to a new context. Not all, but some, and I'm specifically talking about (as this post implies) the notion that infernal entities are incapable of redemption in the present era.</blockquote>

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