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Message: <blockquote data-quote="paradox42" data-source="post: 3341861" data-attributes="member: 29746">Depends on the virtues in question, I'd say. To take two overly-simplistic ones for the sake of illustration, let's figure on two qualities that your previous posts in this thread seem to imply as virtues: forgiveness and love.Now, beings with forgiveness who "fall from grace" and lose or tarnish that quality will certainly not be forgiven by those who do not have said virtue, but of course this is obvious because by definition they don't possess it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Now, certainly it can be said of many (or even most) fiends in D&D that they do not forgive, and thus this example supports your argument.The second example is a being with genuine ability to love, who somehow falls or loses the pure quality (whatever you think the "pure" quality of love means). On the other side are beings without love, who presumably never had it in the first place. In this case, it is not possible to say that they will not forgive the former Lover, because the lack of love does not imply lack of ability to forgive the failing. To make the explanation less abstract, consider this argument for forgiveness: "See? I was telling you this all along. Now you understand and see I was right. Come over here and let's talk about it some more- and see if we can't convince those others who are still deluded." That is definitely an argument I could see a fiend making during the final stages of corrupting a falling celestial.Thus, circumstances exist in which a being who once was a paragon of virtue, losing said virtue, is forgiven by those who either never had the virtue or were simply never "paragons" of it.</blockquote>

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