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Fallen Paladin of torm redemption help
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<blockquote data-quote="Cap'n Kobold" data-source="post: 6831960" data-attributes="member: 6802951"><p>As the DM, you do have the ability to rule that that a specific event causes a Paladin to fall, just like a specific event could cause the Wixard to lose her ability to spellcast. However, you're stepping outside the written rules and into "Because I'm the DM and I say so" or houserules territory.</p><p></p><p>Remember that its the Oath that grants the Paladin's power. They don't necessarily need to follow any god. Even if the Oath was sworn to a god, that doesn't make that god's tenets anything to do with the Paladin's powers.</p><p>If he breaks the tenets of the Oath of Vengeance: if he sidetracks rather than continuing to pursue the object that he swore vengeance against, or similar, then that will break his oath. Doing something that would slightly annoy Torm (its not even directly against his tenets) isn't going to have any impact on their Paladinhood.</p><p></p><p>What alignment is the Paladin? Its not a Good or Lawful act, but if they are Chaotic its well within possibility. Again though: Paladinhood isn't connected to alignment.</p><p></p><p>To decide that the Paladin should fall smacks more of you trying to get revenge on the player personally for putting one over you rather than a DM adjudicating the game world fairly.</p><p></p><p>Firstly: talk to your players. Find out whether it was a joke, or whether they expect the contract as written to be honoured.</p><p></p><p>If they're going to insist on it standing, then let it stand <em><strong>with all of the appropriate consequences</strong></em>. Deal with it In Character as the Lord of the city.</p><p></p><p>Have the Lord not realise the that they had changed the contract until they return and demand payment. Have him ask them them in-character whether their purpose was really to swindle him, and to explain their actions.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: #800080">"Well, I distinctly recall us agreeing upon a price of three hundred Gold pieces to perform the service. Yet this contract states three hundred <em>platinum</em> pieces. <em>So I ask you, Sir Paladin: Which is stronger; your word as a servant of Torm and a Paladin, or this piece of paper?</em> Hmmm?"</span></p><p></p><p>Even if the Lord is lawful, and thus would feel obliged to honour it even if it was not the amount verbally agreed upon, it is a lot of money. The Lord may point out that the treasury may not have those reserves and to make that payment will require diverting funds from charitable donations to the poor/tithes to the churches/funds allocated to the defence of the city.</p><p></p><p>To <em><u>really</u></em> twist the knife:</p><p></p><p><span style="color: #800080">"Now, it would seem that we have a further dragon problem. However I no longer have the funds set aside to hire adventurers of your caliber to deal with them, and I could hardly continue to fund known swindlers: a fact that I intend to make very public indeed.</span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"> "Therefore we shall have to hope that casualties will be as small as can reasonably be expected among the peasants and farmers until another group of more righteous adventurers occur who would be willing to protect the innocent."</span></p><p></p><p>Or:</p><p><span style="color: #800080">"Fortunately, when I approached the Church of Torm for advice as to how to handle this matter, they were both extremely accommodating and rather shocked. They swore to make up the difference out of their own funds as soon as they could sell the relics required to raise that amount. They also granted me a gratifyingly abject and humble apology for the conduct of Torm's alleged servant."</span></p><p></p><p>Or: </p><p><span style="color: #800080">"This man you see before you was the notary to whom these matters were entrusted and who failed to see your little change in the contract. His dereliction of duty and incompetence has cost the city dearly and we are now in debt for years to come. His guilt is not in question; the punishment prescribed by law for such treason is disfigurement and exile/sale into slavery to help recoup the costs/execution* for him and his family. As the servant of righteousness and law closest to the matter, Sir Paladin, it falls to you to carry out the sentence.</span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"> "If you will not, we can send to the Church for a <em><strong>real</strong></em> champion or Torm to uphold the Law."</span></p><p></p><p>*Pick whichever according to laws of the area/inclinations or alignment of the Lord/ or your level of sadism.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cap'n Kobold, post: 6831960, member: 6802951"] As the DM, you do have the ability to rule that that a specific event causes a Paladin to fall, just like a specific event could cause the Wixard to lose her ability to spellcast. However, you're stepping outside the written rules and into "Because I'm the DM and I say so" or houserules territory. Remember that its the Oath that grants the Paladin's power. They don't necessarily need to follow any god. Even if the Oath was sworn to a god, that doesn't make that god's tenets anything to do with the Paladin's powers. If he breaks the tenets of the Oath of Vengeance: if he sidetracks rather than continuing to pursue the object that he swore vengeance against, or similar, then that will break his oath. Doing something that would slightly annoy Torm (its not even directly against his tenets) isn't going to have any impact on their Paladinhood. What alignment is the Paladin? Its not a Good or Lawful act, but if they are Chaotic its well within possibility. Again though: Paladinhood isn't connected to alignment. To decide that the Paladin should fall smacks more of you trying to get revenge on the player personally for putting one over you rather than a DM adjudicating the game world fairly. Firstly: talk to your players. Find out whether it was a joke, or whether they expect the contract as written to be honoured. If they're going to insist on it standing, then let it stand [I][B]with all of the appropriate consequences[/B][/I]. Deal with it In Character as the Lord of the city. Have the Lord not realise the that they had changed the contract until they return and demand payment. Have him ask them them in-character whether their purpose was really to swindle him, and to explain their actions. [COLOR="#800080"]"Well, I distinctly recall us agreeing upon a price of three hundred Gold pieces to perform the service. Yet this contract states three hundred [I]platinum[/I] pieces. [I]So I ask you, Sir Paladin: Which is stronger; your word as a servant of Torm and a Paladin, or this piece of paper?[/I] Hmmm?"[/COLOR] Even if the Lord is lawful, and thus would feel obliged to honour it even if it was not the amount verbally agreed upon, it is a lot of money. The Lord may point out that the treasury may not have those reserves and to make that payment will require diverting funds from charitable donations to the poor/tithes to the churches/funds allocated to the defence of the city. To [I][U]really[/U][/I] twist the knife: [COLOR="#800080"]"Now, it would seem that we have a further dragon problem. However I no longer have the funds set aside to hire adventurers of your caliber to deal with them, and I could hardly continue to fund known swindlers: a fact that I intend to make very public indeed. "Therefore we shall have to hope that casualties will be as small as can reasonably be expected among the peasants and farmers until another group of more righteous adventurers occur who would be willing to protect the innocent."[/COLOR] Or: [COLOR="#800080"]"Fortunately, when I approached the Church of Torm for advice as to how to handle this matter, they were both extremely accommodating and rather shocked. They swore to make up the difference out of their own funds as soon as they could sell the relics required to raise that amount. They also granted me a gratifyingly abject and humble apology for the conduct of Torm's alleged servant."[/COLOR] Or: [COLOR="#800080"]"This man you see before you was the notary to whom these matters were entrusted and who failed to see your little change in the contract. His dereliction of duty and incompetence has cost the city dearly and we are now in debt for years to come. His guilt is not in question; the punishment prescribed by law for such treason is disfigurement and exile/sale into slavery to help recoup the costs/execution* for him and his family. As the servant of righteousness and law closest to the matter, Sir Paladin, it falls to you to carry out the sentence. "If you will not, we can send to the Church for a [I][B]real[/B][/I] champion or Torm to uphold the Law."[/COLOR] *Pick whichever according to laws of the area/inclinations or alignment of the Lord/ or your level of sadism. [/QUOTE]
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