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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mordane76" data-source="post: 477684" data-attributes="member: 7172">Generally I agree with you, Sanackranib, on there being no such thing as a No-Win Situation, except in the case of poor DM judgements calls; the No-Win that I proposed (at least in my own head) was a situation where no matter what the paladin did, he would fall.  Now, in the real world, such a situation is hard to fathom.  In a game-world that upholds most of the concepts from real life, it is equally hard to fathom.  But DMs aren't the real world, and they can foul up.  No-Win Situations result from poor understanding by the DM, and shouldn't be an issue in a game run by an experienced, patient DM.I think the Hero's Dilemma situation we've been kicking around is a good example of, to use the proper tool analogy, using a backhoe to dig a hole for a dog-bone -- it elicits the desired situation, but it's not surgical by any means.  It's blatant, destructive, and potentially unnerving.  It should work well against young paladins, those new to the faith and/or weak in their faith (like Celtavian said).  It also depends on the structure of the afterlife in the campaign -- if there is a place where good people go, then obviously this should be far less effective.  But we must remember, even Christians feel that great remorse (a la Bram Stoker's Dracula) when those close to them die; we know they're in a better place, but that doesn't mean we don't still want them here, because there still can be those little nagging doubts like, "What if we're wrong, and there is no afterlife," or the sudden realization (for the holy warrior) that this is all because he wasn't there due to obligations to the church.  While those strong in the faith should take this as the wages of a righteous life and redouble their efforts, the novices may not fair as well.Surgical and insidious is definitely the way to go with more experienced paladins -- blunt force trauma of the magnitude required to make such paladins fall tends to turn them into uncontrollable machines of grief/rage-driven destruction.  Surgical removal of their virtue can forge the righteous paladin into the perfect tool of evil -- controlled, obedient, and fervent for the cause he now espouses.Also, Celtavian, the Hero's Dilemma can be used to elicit the situation, and if the paladin either pass through it easily (makes no choice because of strong belief in the afterlife, manages to save both, or even though he saves one or none doesn't choice to blame his god), then all is good and the situation has served its purpose -- the paladin has been tested, and found able.  If he completely flies off the handle (renounces god and title, declares desire to destroy all things associated with the church that took him from his relatives, etc.) then the situation has served its purpose -- the paladin has been tested, and found lacking.  Finally, if a grey result occurs (the paladin doesn't outright renounce his god, but begins to slowly act like those he once fought during his quest for vengeance), then the situation serves an even greater role-playing purpose -- the paladin has been tested, and is still being tested.  Those around him can help make the difference in whether he returns to the straight and narrow or simply slides into the darkness, and that makes for great role-playing!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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