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Message: <blockquote data-quote="fenriswolf456" data-source="post: 5878142" data-attributes="member: 6687664">Sure, if your character can bend the very fabric of space in the world they're in (for all intents and purposes, a god), I can totally go with them not being concerned by a bunch of physics-bound bowmen.  Though I'm not looking for high level PCs to be easily defeated by a bunch of guards with crossbows or swords or whatever. I would like for there to be a feeling that 'hey, those arrows could do some real damage' and for the characters to feel that there is some danger to what they're facing. I'm totally not wanting the players to balk at the situation (unless I'm looking to capture them for plot reasons). Sure, if combat erupts, I wholely expect the PCs to end up victorious. I'm all for the badass hero who doesn't take s*&^ from mooks. It just breaks the immersion for me when players start metagaming the system. "Oh, they're only 3rd level, they can't possibly hit my AC", "They're all minions, I can totally take 12 hits even if they all crit". It can be fun from a game-playing pov, not so fun from a role-playing pov. Maybe I need to add weapon dice to attacks made against being flat-footed.  Totally awesome and great. I totally buy into this. The character wasn't going "Hey, I've got XX hp, I can totally survive this.", he knew he had humungous regeneration and healing abilities, so sure he knew the fall would hurt, but he would likely survive it. And even if he didn't, it still falls into the 'insane with a rabid hatred of demons' mindset of the character.  Why not? With proper planning and preparation and an understanding of what they're facing, why can't a 'realistic' group of heros take down a dragon (i.e. Reign of Fire)? Even ordinary real 'mooks' took out tanks with bottles of alcohol and gas, because they found the weak points to exploit.  Again, no it doesn't. Classic story dragons are normally impervious to mundane weapons. A group of PCs, even in magical armour, usually aren't.Water puts out fire. Sponges absorb water. Therefore sponges totally defeat fire?   I personally don't buy into Strider being 5th or 6th level, and place the skilled members of the Fellowship in the Paragon tier. But that's my own interpretation, and is entirely subjective to the level and style of play. There is also the issue that the LotR world doesn't really match the D&D game stats. Some parallels can be drawn, certainly: orks being orcs or goblins, the Balrog being a Balor. But then trolls in LotR are not the trolls of D&D. The world is very low magic. In 4E, a Balor is a level 27 Elite, meaning even a level 27 epic PC would have issues defeating one on their own. By strict plugging in of D&D equivalents, that makes Gandalf at least level 27, if not higher, and he comes back even stronger than before. And yes, I totally do think that if Glorfindel took 3+ arrows to the chest from being caught unawares/flat-footed, he would at least certainly be hurting, if not outright dying, just like Boromir.   You're exaggerating what's being said. No one is saying that a group of PCs should die to a group of 12 bowmen. We're saying if 12 mundane spikes tossed from the tail of a manticore is a credible threat, why aren't 12 mundane crossbow bolts fired from trained marksmen? Currently it's because players can meta-game, and know that the rules have written that the Level 10 manticore has a decent chance to hit, while the level 3 guards don't. It was suggested earlier about scaling threats to match the characters, rather than being static, which I'm liking more and more, and can certainly see this as a potential starting point for dialing the scale of adventure. Guards as Lvl-2 minions could work. Likely to kill the heroes? No. But certainly not a 'lol' cakewalk either.  I don't see how this conflicts against mechanics. Characters roleplaying concern of crossing damage-inflicting terrain? All the mechanics say is something like "take 2d6 damage, slowed [save end]". But to high level D&D PCs, the mechanics of this totally don't matter, because it's such a low amount of damage that it barely registers.  Perhaps it should be in the way the encounter is set up. It's clear that there's a choice to be made in the Die Hard example. Continue to shoot it out with the baddies, and chance getting shot up. Or charge across broken glass with bare feet and endure the pain and bloodloss. It's obviously a 'realistic' gritty kind of choice, and something that seems to be difflcult to model in say epic level D&D. I think at heart we're wanting similar things. We both want the mechanics to matter in playing the game. If the glass on the floor isn't a concern, why bother having it in the first place? If it is, then it has to be of some concern to the players in some way. Currently, there are some mechanics that don't matter at certain points in the game, which is why some of us would like for ways to make it matter again. If jumping off a cliff doesn't matter to you or your PCs, then that's fine, mark off some HPs or healing surges or whatever and move on. But it would be nice for those of us who see our epic level heroes more like Lancelot (i.e. the best of the best, but still mortal) than Hercules (demigods verging on godhood) to be able to have consistent rules to help us play in that mode.</blockquote>

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