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Message: <blockquote data-quote="triqui" data-source="post: 5878911" data-attributes="member: 57948">Again, that works for a strict small niche of creatures (those with damage reduction). A fire giant does not have DR. A flight of Manticores do not have DR. If 12 crossbow bolts shot by peasants are so deadly as to have decent chances to kill a level 12 player and burn a level 12 fighter hp, then they have the same chances to get through a CR12 monster and burn his HP. If such thing happens, then 12 militia with crossbows can kill a Fire Giant, a Manticore, or whatever other mid-to high level monster that is not impervious to normal damage. If 12 have a chance, 24 will cut through them easily, and 50 will be unable to fail.In such game system, the need of Heroes is lessened. Regular militia with crossbows can take down most threats (all of them, except those inmune to regular weapons) In terms of D&D? It's 5th level, and no more. A Troll, which is a credible CR4-5, is a tough enemy for him. He can't probably defeat it alone, he needed the help of his party. If he would face a Giant (roughly a CR 10 enemy), he wouldn't have a chance to survive. Any dragon (who are roughly CR 13-15), even the lowliest ones, will just make him flee. They see a kraken (CR18), and they flee. They see wraiths, and they flee. They face, mostly, orcs (who are a low level CR, and so they kill them by droves), gobllins (in Moria), a few wargs (which are about CR5, and give him a run for his money). The toughest thing he kill is probably a wight (CR4-5)Gandalf IS level 27. He is a maiar, almost a god. Ganfalf is not one of the game PC. He is a DM tool. The closest equivalence in D&D, is Dragonlance party, and Fizban. He goes with the party, but he is not a PC. He is a god in disguise, and is there to help the players.  The point is, 12 mooks targeting him did not get him sleeping. He can move, and act. He would dodge all the arrows, turn them into lesser hits, block with his armor and combat experience and so on (that's what hp are for). See Brad Pitt's Achilles in Troy when attacking Apollo's temple. He just dodges and parries all the arrows and spears thrown at him. He is, in all intents and purpose, untouchable (he even dodges Hector's javelin effortless). Glorfindel will be like that, or better. There's no chance 12 (or 50, for that matter) orcs with bows can kill him. At all. (And let's not start with Fëonor. I doubt any number of normal arrows can kill him. And yes, I mean taking him flat-footed. That guy fought platoons of Balrogs.But if they are threatened by 12 militia, then they are highly threatened by 18 militia, and will probably die to 25 militia. 25 goblins are NOT, and should not, be a threat comparable to a pair of manticores. Local militia can, and should, be able to kill a bunch of goblins, with proper numbers. They should run terrorized from a pair of manticores, because those are the realm of heroes. And the reason 12 mundanes spkies tossed are a threat, but 12 mundane bolts aren't, is *level*. D&D functions as a level-based game (and I hope it keeps doing so). The 12 spikes are +15 to hit, the 12 goblins arrows are +3 to hit. I can see a game with a flattened math. That's nice, I'll buy that. But that game will still have things to keep those 12 goblins being goblins, and that manticore being a manticore. That's the full purpose of level. To make the PC a group of heroes. People capable of doing uncanny feats. They can face and match manticores, chimaeras, giants, dragons, demons. Things that ordinary man run in terror from. To be able to fight a Balor, and survive, you need to be *tough* as a Balor. Someone who is tough as a Balor, can't be really threatened by a bunch of goblins with pointy sticks. Or city guards with proficiency in simple weapons and 35 gp crossbows.</blockquote>

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