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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chrono22" data-source="post: 5046228" data-attributes="member: 86638">At the root of it, the differences you are talking about exist because the 4e designers' vision of D&D wasn't very expansive.First of all, let's make this clear- people play pen and paper RPGs for a reason. It doesn't have to be a good reason, or an interesting one. But there has to be something that such games give them, that they cannot find from other areas. PnP RPGs are a niche product- they have a limited value to the minority of the population (although I think this has alot to do with how they are produced/marketed, not necessarily the content).I believe we play pnp RPGs because they are collaberation/imagination engines- they allow each participant to add his own intentions, interests, and experiences to the pool. The appeal of pnp RPGs is that the play experience is calibrated for the individual- he gets what he wants (be it power, fame, success, or freedom).3e's inherently inclusive nature (the OGL & core mechanic) meant that it could draw from many genres and influences to augment it's own core rules. I suppose the argument could be made that these influences watered down D&D- made it less D&Dlike- but then that begs the question "What is D&D"?Obviously it isn't something in the mechanics- it isn't the classes, levels, or experience charts. Those change radically between editions... it isn't ac, thac0, or percentile roles- it's something disconnected from the actual rules of the RPG.I think the thing that makes D&D unique, and is inherent to its nature is a feeling of fellowship, an adventurous spirit, and a sense of wonder.The feeling of fellowship is usually derived from a sense of shared risk, and how differences among the individuals become a strength- the group can accomplish more than the individual.The adventurous spirit is usually derived from how the PCs perceive themselves in respect to their world and environment. They don't know what lies around the corner or beyond the sunset- and they want to. Curiousity drives them. This aspect of D&D isn't something you can give players- you can only reward it.The sense of wonder is derived from unreal experiences, new experiences, and the unknown. It's challenging old thinking, rewarding lateral thinking, and seeing things in a new light.Taken in this light, D&D's emphasis on swords & sorcery, dragons & dungeons seems contrived. Fellowship doesn't have to be party-based, wonder can be found in a teacup, and an adventurous spirit is something that can be cultivated by challenging your preconceptions in any form.Really, though, the reason 4e feels "off" is because the designers' intentions didn't account for these things. They confused D&D's subject matter with its purpose. They confused their own playstyles with some kind of universal constant. They narrowed its focus, limited its scope. You say 4e is "watered down". No, it's just very concentrated- but its a concentration of features you don't associate with your own experiences of D&D.</blockquote>

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