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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5050630" data-attributes="member: 5834">In prior groups they had spells like mass polymorph or you memorise polymorph multiple times or disguise self, veil, mass invisibility or other such spells such as illusions.As an example, I use an illusion spell to run creatures off a bridge using the old 3E rules. I also used to use illusion spells to draw out ambushes. Something I was not able to do in 4E.4E neutered the creative caster. Why do you think a few of us hate the game? We got alot of mileage out of the previous editions magic system, and it wasn't throwing fireballs.One time we were fighting a cadre of leveled arrow demons and I concocted a strategy that took up almost all of my spell slots as the clerics just to put the melees in a position to take out the arrow demons because it was our best option. It was creative use of windwall, teleport, invisibility, and other such non-combat spells to get the job done.That type of planning and strategy was completely absent from 4E in 11 levels. Every class focused mostly on taking the best possible powers for their given level and using them over and over repetitiously. Then they used those powers even when they weren't needed just because they could. That was the playstyle I saw encouraged by 4E. Whereas in 3E in our particular groups, there was a great deal more reliance on party support. The cleric players had to know how to provide defense against a mob of negative energy creatures or having resist energy spells ready for dragons or harsh magical creatures. It's one of those things I chalk up to the "experiences differ" aphorism. 3E encouraged a greater degree of interactivity and reliance than 4E for our gaming group. Whereas 4E encouraged min-max power choices and a stronger focus on what an individual character could versus what a well-prepared party can do. One of the main reasons being the lack of options. Once powers are chosen, they are set. The cleric and wizard never used to be in that box and even smart melees used options like sunder or disarm to improve their combat options.To some 4E seems like a game that expands options, to a player like me it limits options. It comes down to differing experiences with the exact same game systems. That's how it usually works.</blockquote>

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