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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jgbrowning" data-source="post: 5054071" data-attributes="member: 5724">There's no fighter with a shield. The object weighs more than 20 lbs. The party is level 6 and do not have level 11 items.Seeing them now?Anyway, this back-and-forth "it's just as creative" argument is a silly one because that assumes the argument was that the creativity lost by having a 10 minute casting time is not regained through other means. That's not the argument. The argument is just that there is a loss of creative potential.You've already agreed with the argument of the loss of creative potential - you're saying that the losses aren't that bad because there are other ways around the losses. My above example shows that, perhaps, there actually may not be ways around the losses because the creativity involved is circumstantial, not static and balanced. That, perhaps, there may not be "other ways" to make up for a loss and to just assume that there are isn't necessarily the best assumption.I think that rituals add a lot of creativity to the game - that they're often the most creative parts of the game because so much of it is about damage-healing/condition-condition removal/movement-hindering movement. Rituals are all the cool things that don't have much to do with the tripartite power construction focus.And what's been lost is the time-sensitive creativity of 1 round vs. 10 rounds. Creativity may have been gained in other ways, but the loss, IMO, is obvious. Anything that could happen with a 1 round ritual that cannot happen with a 10 round ritual is what has been lost. The amount of creativity that you think is lost depends on how much creativity you think was there to begin with, I suppose.I tend to think there's a lot more creativity in the interactions of all those rituals with their environments as well as the secondary interactions of the rituals with other object that can then be creatively used than you're giving credit to by saying "a slight loss." For example: since Tordek can breathwater quickly, he has just enough time to jam his shield into the descending underwater portcullis, keeping it open so that the rest of the group can go through later when they all can water breath.In the end, the importance of the loss is a personal assessment and people will have different opinions. But at least we're no longer arguing that there wasn't even was a loss and that having fewer options for the players helps them better their creative output.joe b.</blockquote>

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