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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Loonook" data-source="post: 5890025" data-attributes="member: 1861">The cost-benefit you're drawing here is what is the issue.  You're using spells in such a way as to be 'game changers' in the economics of your setting.... And they're not.  They assist when you get to higher necessity, true, but the costs inherent to your hauls is going to be high.I'm choosing grain as an example due to the fact that you're transporting it in our first example.  Of course transport of other goods via Bags of Holding is going to be cheaper... However, you're also believing that an individual is going to invest in nested Bags of Holding to transport trade goods long distances and not charge for their carriage in said bag of holding.  In essence the Bag of Holding serves as a very fast moving keelboat with the mule being your mage du jour.  I'm presenting that your ideas of wealth are quite high for what the items can do.  Would a trade consortium decide to hire such a courier to transport valuable spices, they're going to be paying a lot less.But most of all you have to figure that logistically you're greatly reducing the yield per unit as you trade.  Let us say that your 3000 miles away from a kingdom which is going to war in one week.  They are in desperate need of longswords, to the point that they have gone up to triple their normal cost. You can produce them at 5 GP for your standard sword plus hireling costs . . .  you hire 100 lvl. 1 Int. 12 Expert smiths to start pumping out swords.  With a maximum benefit of +10 (+4 ranks, +1 Int, +3 Focus, +2 Apprentice Aid) you can produce 100 longswords in 5 days making daily checks at a total cost of 700 GP.  You scoop up as many cheap longswords as you can purchase using your tradesmen in the various areas by using simple foot and hoof.  You get 300 from an armory somewhere near for normal 'trade' price of 7.5 gp... Not the best, but still worth it at the market price you are getting for them.  We'll consider your cohorts to be making side deals, just 'scouting' your needs, and you're calling in a favor so no charge for your merchant contacts beyond the initial Gather Information check (lets put it at 10 GP for a couple made over the 5 days).400 overall swords, at a price of 2950 gp, for a total overall profit of 15050.  Now you need to hire your Spellcaster.  The cheapest Teleport option to get you there on time is going to be to have the spellcaster take along 2 horses and you... This means a 15th level spellcaster is needed to cast the spell is 1500 one way for Teleport with another 1500 to retrieve your satchel of swords after bargaining... Oh, and per SHBG the cost of a PC hireling 1st level is 30 GP/month (the rate of an Acolyte 1).  Extrapolating from other listings we'll give you level*30 GP rate/month.  Now you don't know WHEN everything will be coming in and have to wait down to the wire for your others so figure 5 days of 'keeping' money along with your 2 days out to the wilds of the world + spellcraft.  This isn't a hazardous situation so he probably doesn't qualify for additional... We'll keep it at 105 GP.  The horses are just a feint as you pay for the use of the mage's bag of holding Class IV.  He'll charge you 2% of its overall cost or (off the top of my head, I may be wrong) 320 GP as it has to be 'out of use' for him for 7 days, roughly 1/50 of a year.The mage casts his spells, gets you to where you're going, comes back.  You've made 7175 off of your swords.  The swords sell for what amounts to 24 gp/a piece. Of course this doesn't include taxation in the kingdom that would probably have an import tax on steel implements, greasing palms, etc. that got you to the knowledge you have.  I'd personally consider the overall sales price of the blades right around 21/blade after finder's fee to the guy who sent you the information from abroad.  With the dangerous of Greater Creation present the crafty merchant may even spend a few days in town, making sure that his gold doesn't just disappear when he gets heading back home, costing him even more.Business is NOT easy.  If you follow a loose model of how business works in your game (no taxes, no excise, loose spell interpretation) makes the very problems you discuss about the D&D economic model not functioning.  That 21 gp/blade post-cost is double what a smith gets off a new blade (5 gp cost of products), and triple what a reseller gets off the same blade.  Throw a couple of Masterwork blades found during your crawl (good Gather check,for instance) and you're making even better scratch.  7175 GP could be invested in increasing your business, purchasing goods, etc.Most of the denizens of the board seem to believe that businesses just sort of click their fingers and make profit.  The Mage who did that gig is probably having to pay off debts he has gained during his time adventuring or even reinvesting into his apprentices or Guild hall.  He probably lives much better than a 'hand to mouth' existence, but a mage has plenty of expenses he has to put on his books also.  Golems and staves don't come cheap, nor do those new spells he is researching to build a better mousetrap on that hop from Kingdom A to Kingdom B.The economy works even at such large scales because the numbers exist for it.  At first blush the costs of various items makes no sense... Why not just do X and make millions? Because XP and Supply and Demand exist.  When we have these large-scale global catastrophic events like your famine there ARE ways to alleviate through magic, and even allay the fear of starvation... But how much does the average commoner carry in liquid assets?That's kind of the point that I was trying to make.  Adventurers and high-level NPCs operate in a realm that few normal humanoids understand.  They have costs far beyond the scope of a normal household, and that accumulates in higher risk versus exponentially higher reward.  The mage charges for use of his Bag of Holding because there is that 1/20 chance of damaging the item if they face damage from a spell or other effect, theft, etc.  They may even pay an insurance group a large sum per year for protection of their goods... The mage may even be part of such a group hired by the merchant for their services and a guarantee of delivery of goods.There are a lot of great resources I would suggest looking into including a few old ENWorld books (EN Guilds: Banking and Merchant Guilds are a solid start though not great at looking at ALL of the numbers). I think they will definitely help understand why merchants can enter business (through loans from the local Grange or Merchant Guild with heavy interest), insure their cargo, etc.  This wasn't uncommon during the periods of the banking houses, and is really a good thing to understand to add a certain amount of verisimilitude to your game.Slainte,-Loonook.</blockquote>

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