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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EditorBFG" data-source="post: 3692641" data-attributes="member: 24719">Let's talk about the save/defense problem.Because really, by not making magic skill based, spells aren't the issue. Yes, we can do MAB at roughly half class level. But, as others point out, we can also just make Caster Level a thing that appears on the class chart next to BAB as easily as MAB (by the way, if we did use MAB we would have to call it something else, I hate that term), and make it scale with level, thus making it not subject to skill-type improvements. In fact, since MAB is too much of a departure for some folks, if we do go with half-level saves (half-defenses) we could still use caster levels. We could even just make the roll to cast a spell/overcome defenses 1d20 + ability mod + half Caster Level, which is just about the same  as D&D. Caster Level can be on the class chart with BAB, which also solves the multiclassing problems mentioned above. In many ways, Caster Level works like Saga's Use the Force skill, we just hardwire the progression into the class rather than using at as a skill.So either way, spells and defenses will scale.The problem is making saves/defenses scale with everything else. I know the problem has already been laid out, but just to go over it again, restating some of the obvious:I'm a GM running, I dunno, Death in Freeport, and there is a trap with a Reflex save DC of 17. Now, at half-level defenses, I just roll d20+7 against the character's Reflex Defense, and the chances of success or failure are true to the author's intentions. If we use character level as defense, instead of half, is there a way to make the conversion just as easily?Further, if there are cloaks that add to AC (which becomes a bonus to Reflex Defense) and rings that add to ability scores, on the fly conversion becomes that much harder. Even if we assume that both sides in most conflicts have such buffing capabilities, it doesn't solve everything. The above trap DC is fine at first level, but what about traps in a higher level module like, say, Monte Cook's the Banewarrens? Conversion on the fly becomes a real hassle.And, on top of all this, characters in fantasy should find armor a more attractive option than in Star Wars. Because in Star Wars, armor is something bad guys wear (Darth Vader, Stormtroopers, Boba Fett), rather than heroes, so armor being a loser without certain talents makes sense. In fantasy, knights and heroes often do wear armor, so using the Saga rules as is makes D&D style settings work more like George Lucas movies, which is bad. So defenses matter in this arena as well.Now, if I've touched on all the issues, half-defenses seem to be the way to go-- and when we first had this discussion, that seemed to be the consensus. Now, we seem to be disagreeing again, so if folks don't like half-defenses, please restate the reasons why now so  people can respond and bring this particular debate to a close.</blockquote>

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