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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 4442471" data-attributes="member: 5834">The thing I seem to see is that you can't have a subjective opinion that is your own and not meant to be looked at as an opinion that everyone should share without being attacked for it. When I wrote the original post, it was all my own opinion. It was my scream at what I thought was wrong with 4E for myself.There are probably people who have entirely different things about 4E they don't like and ton of people who dislike plenty about 3E that they have stated over the years. But for some reason some 4E supporters chose to jump on my argument as though I were saying "This is what is bad about 4E". It didn't seem to matter that I clearly stated "This is my subjective opinion. There is no way to change it. This is my feeling after playing the game. I do not need you to share that opinion for me to know that all that I have written I feel to be true for my own tastes." Some people like 4E. Who am I to tell them why they shouldn't like 4E? Just like who are they to tell me that the reasons I don't like it are invalid? I feel they are valid and they don't mesh right in my head. Just because they mesh right in other people's head, doesn't mean that suits us all.For example, I see a ton of people complain about the 3E wizard being the "I win" guy. I never experienced that. In my experience, the 3E wizard was the guy who enabled the entire party to win. When I talk about the wizard stepping up when the light is darkest, I don't mean stepping up and winning alone. I mean he was the guy who cast Haste making the party stronger. He was the guy who cast fly on the fighter so he could actually fight the dragon or flying demon. He was the guy who cast resist energy on the party so they could withstand the hail of energy blasts being rained down on them. He was the guy who stepped into to render the enemy wizard inert so the rest of the party could wade through the minions to kill that big bad guy.We played with a wizard player who tried to do things alone in terms of landing big, tough killing blows. All he ended up doing was getting the party massacred. In the high level game the bad guys such as dragons and major demons were strong enough to withstand a wizard's attacks and kill a wizard quick. So either a wizard learned how and where to apply his attacks or he got ripped apart. So I've never played in a game where the wizard was supreme.The wizard just never had enough spells at his disposal. And we never played the game with the 15 minute adventuring day I hear people speak of. Just like we don't let people play 4E with the 15 minute adventuring day so they don't always have access to their dailies. We play 4E the way it was intended to be played waiting for healing surges to dry up before we rest. We play 3E the same way by responsibly using power to get the most done in one day rather than letting everyone blow off their daily abilities each fight and expect to rest. It all comes down to how you play. Some DMs couldn't handle the wizard and some players didn't like playing with a guy allowed to use every spell and ability in the game. Since that didn't happen in our group because we use oversight to catch overpowered powers and didn't the wizard rest after he launched his spell repertorie, we didn't have the same troubles. You know what? I do the same thing in 4E. If I see an overpowered combo, that is hammered as early as it is caught. Blade Cascade wasn't going to see the light of day in our campaign as it was written. Seal of Binding combined with Demigod regeneration isn't going to see the light of day. Just like Avasculate isn't allowed in our 3E campaigns.Everything in a game can be handled if you take the time to evaluate how a power or spell works. But a game that is mechanically very different cannot be changed dramatically without breaking it. When it comes down to it the mechanics of 4E will suit some people and they will not suit others. I prefer the mechancs of 3E. I find they suit my fantasy tastes better than 4E for a variety of reasons that mostly have to do with uniqueness and flavor.Just like some people like that 4E is more egalitarian and balanced, I prefer 3E because it is more differentiated and imbalanced. It is even that way when it comes to monster races. I love what they did in 3E with monster templates. Those 3E monster design tools gave you a real understanding of what an undead was, a planar creature, or an elemental. You felt like you were reading about different creatures in the same way you feel like you are reading about different species in an encyclopedia. I like that feel.Some of 4E I like what they did with monster powers. I don't like the base design templates, but I might steel some of the monster powers to use with my 3E monsters like Hobgoblin Phalanx. After reading the DMs guide and monster manual, 4E monsters felt hollow and artificial. Alot of hand waving and monster design based on game balance versus pseudorealistic racial or species representation. I prefer the latter to the former. I like feeling like my monster races are based on concrete ideas of what a creature of that type would be like.4E had some good ideas that I like. I just think it would be easier for me to take some of the good ideas from 4E and modify 3E to get the overall feel I like in a fantasy game than try to export 3E things I like into 4E. I like the 3E base mechanics better and some of the 4E designs for certain monsters abilities and a few 4E mechanics like healing and disease. I might incorporate 4E healing and disease mechanics into my 3E game as well, but I'm going to have work on that.I know I'm definitely going to import the idea that 3E characters heal up to full after one day. I like that they are good to go after a day rather than expending a wand of healing to top them all off. Just some good old fashion rest. But I like healing surges. I think healing surges could work in 3E just fine and allow me to limit the number of healing items needed to survive adventures. Which was one of my major problems with 3E suspension of disbelief.It will be interesting to try to combine the games. I definitely want the 3E feel for casters. I like my casters powerful. I want them to feel like they wield arcane and divine powers that awe people and can level armies. And yeah, I don't need someone to tell me I can get that same effect with a bunch of Ogre or humanoid minions while the wizard uses Scorching Blast. I want my wizards to be able to level armies of real ogres, giants, or demons that Mr. Farmer with a pitchfork couldn't kill with one lucky blow. So let's not have that discussion again. No one will ever convince me the minion mechanic is cool. I'm not saying it doesn't work as far as appearances go, but I am saying it will never be as satisfying as killing a group of creatures that you know are strong enough not to die to one measly hit of any kind by anyone. To sum it up, 3E is a game more suited to my tastes. I plan to take from 4Eisms into 3E and see how they work. The healing and disease systems being the most prominent 4Eisms I want to rob as well as some of the fighting styles of humanoid monsters. I may even incorporate some of the melee powers as dailies for melee types. I like that melee types can do more in the game. I didn't mind that in the slightest. I just didn't why they had to neuter wizards and priests to make melee types better. It will be interesting mixing and matching.</blockquote>

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