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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 4459992" data-attributes="member: 5834">reIt's good to see that some people understood the point of the thread. The comment about not arguing was aimed at not making this into another edition war. But some people just can't resist attempting to argue their pro-4E point at every turn in every thread even if the person they are arguing with has already experienced the game system and did not like what he experienced.I love the "whiner" shots from people that couldn't just ignore the thread. That was rich. I wonder if they even realized how hypocritical they were with their  own "whining" that I was wrong and carrying on their whine for however many pages when they were told that I wasn't planning to change my mind. Personally, I always wish I could meet such people face to face so they could see who they were calling a whiner. One thing about Internet forums and long-distance communication, civility is left at the door and people that would normally know well enough to keep their mouths in line are allowed to prattle off whatever drivel they feel their clever, rude minds can conjure up. I also loved the number of people that brought up moot points and prime examples of what I was talking about like "powers that don't actually mean what they say they mean because you can just say the person is doing the same thing even when they aren't using a power with that given name". It was a fine example of what I was talking about with 4E being all style and no substance. 4E is like watching a movie of a movie being made rather than watching the movie after it is done. You can see all the cameras and special effects. I've even noticed the change with my players. They claim they love 4E. And at the same time they play the game with the mechanics in mind first rather than reacting as a character would react in a story. They are constantly looking at what their powers do rather than being fully immersed in the game and story. They love to shoot their powers off rather than waste time role playing.It is to the point where the DM I run with just said "I'm not going to focus on story too much. This game is designed almost completely with combat in mind. Everyone just likes to blow off their powers. So I'm just going to focus on combat."It's all a pretty sad change IMO. I was looking forward to a new version of D&D. Just not this thing they put out. Too focused on mechanics, powers, and balance. They lost alot of the flavor of the game for me. I know some people are fine with the changes, but I don't like it.In previous editions, I liked that people respected the fighter because he was  good fighter that could bring the pain if ignored, not because he has Combat Challenge or Divine Challenge. Every round I'm switching tokens from Combat Challenge to Divine Challenge. The monster must attack the fighter or paladin because otherwise he takes added damage. And then the rogue just bashed him for a ton of damage anyway. Most solos and elites have no chance at all in such a fight. Whenver I hear someone had a hard time with a solo or elite, I wonder what game they're playing. Because all you need is a defender holding that aggro with a cleric or warlord unloading powers to boost everyone's damage and a few strikers and that supposedly tough solo is basically fighting a solo with 5 plus attacks per round depending on how many characters have action points. It's pretty pathetic.I personally think the veneer of 4E is going to wear off faster than any edition as people get higher level and get a taste for the game. I've been playing 4E two times a week since a week after it came out. It didn't take long for the luster to wear off. I'ved DMed a long time over multiple game systems whether they be versions of D&D or GURPS (a game system I love, but is just too hard to play for too many people), I've yet to play a game system as heavily favored towards the characters as 4E. Even my friend who for the most part likes 4E is making house rules to boost the lethality of the game. He can barely stand that undead went from scary suck your life away creatures to easily killed do a little necrotic damage lamers. I hope Necromancer Games gets to do some 4E material soon. My friend likes Necromancer Games modules and monster books. Maybe they'll boost the lethality of the game like they did with 3E. They have some creative folks over there that know how to make a module that can challenge D&D players of any variety be they power gamers or otherwise.</blockquote>

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