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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7610374" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Yes.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure a hit-points/damage "treadmill" is inherently more virtuous than a to-hit/defence "treadmill". And it seems to have some side-effects ("sack of hp" monsters, for instance) that 4e largely avoided.</p><p></p><p>I will concede the following: many D&D players seem to regard a +2 to hit that is (roughly) matched by a comparable +2 to AC on the GM side as an "illusion" of advancement; whereas they regard getting a second attack per round, matched by a comparable doubling of hp on the GM side as "genuine"advancement. But personally I don't get it. It's all just numbers, whether you're doing it by way of addition or doing it by way of multiplication.</p><p></p><p>I've played not much 3E, and so I may not be following this. But I think you're saying that, at upper levels in 3E, stark differences of competence emerge between PC builds that demonstrate particular dimensions of "advancement", and that 4e doesn't have this.</p><p></p><p>Because I haven't had the 3E experience I probably can't make the comparison. But I can compare to my AD&D experience. A high level 4e wizard doesn't play any more like a melee combatant than does a high level AD&D wizard. And a high level 4e fighter can't teleport or dominate. But that high level 4e fighter can charge into a swarm of *whatevers* and survive; which s/he couldn't do at 1st level. And the high level 4e wizard can conjure up flying steed for the party to ride, which s/he couldn't do at 1st level.</p><p></p><p>There are plenty of differences between AD&D and 4e, but I don't see the one that (I think) you're pointing to as a very striking instance.</p><p></p><p>I think that you've only stepped through a surface "illusion" into a deeper illusion here. Which is connected to the point that it's all just numbers.</p><p></p><p>Being able to beat more goblins because your to hit number dropped (say from 8 to 5 on the d20) and your number of attacks has grown (say from 1 per unit damage taken to 2 per unit damage taken, and you've tripled the amount of unit damage you can take) is just maths. If instead you can beat more goblins not because your to hit number has dropped nor your number of attacks grown, but your number of hits needed per goblin taken down hs decreased (because they're minions), well that's maths too.</p><p></p><p>It's not like the first involves or demonstrates some player skill that the second doesn't.</p><p></p><p>The player skill is all in engaging the encounter as set up by the GM, and that is what it is regardless of the advancement mechanism. And the "advancement" is in the fiction, and that is what it is regardess of the maths used to "model" and resolve it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7610374, member: 42582"] Yes. I'm not sure a hit-points/damage "treadmill" is inherently more virtuous than a to-hit/defence "treadmill". And it seems to have some side-effects ("sack of hp" monsters, for instance) that 4e largely avoided. I will concede the following: many D&D players seem to regard a +2 to hit that is (roughly) matched by a comparable +2 to AC on the GM side as an "illusion" of advancement; whereas they regard getting a second attack per round, matched by a comparable doubling of hp on the GM side as "genuine"advancement. But personally I don't get it. It's all just numbers, whether you're doing it by way of addition or doing it by way of multiplication. I've played not much 3E, and so I may not be following this. But I think you're saying that, at upper levels in 3E, stark differences of competence emerge between PC builds that demonstrate particular dimensions of "advancement", and that 4e doesn't have this. Because I haven't had the 3E experience I probably can't make the comparison. But I can compare to my AD&D experience. A high level 4e wizard doesn't play any more like a melee combatant than does a high level AD&D wizard. And a high level 4e fighter can't teleport or dominate. But that high level 4e fighter can charge into a swarm of *whatevers* and survive; which s/he couldn't do at 1st level. And the high level 4e wizard can conjure up flying steed for the party to ride, which s/he couldn't do at 1st level. There are plenty of differences between AD&D and 4e, but I don't see the one that (I think) you're pointing to as a very striking instance. I think that you've only stepped through a surface "illusion" into a deeper illusion here. Which is connected to the point that it's all just numbers. Being able to beat more goblins because your to hit number dropped (say from 8 to 5 on the d20) and your number of attacks has grown (say from 1 per unit damage taken to 2 per unit damage taken, and you've tripled the amount of unit damage you can take) is just maths. If instead you can beat more goblins not because your to hit number has dropped nor your number of attacks grown, but your number of hits needed per goblin taken down hs decreased (because they're minions), well that's maths too. It's not like the first involves or demonstrates some player skill that the second doesn't. The player skill is all in engaging the encounter as set up by the GM, and that is what it is regardless of the advancement mechanism. And the "advancement" is in the fiction, and that is what it is regardess of the maths used to "model" and resolve it. [/QUOTE]
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