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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ackem" data-source="post: 1256459" data-attributes="member: 15003">You're being obtuse, Toughness is only used as a punishment Feat to balance certain overpowered Feats/PrCs. 10 hitpoints isn't worth 3 Feats because no one would ever take Toughness 3 times to get 10 hitpoints, nor would practically anyone ever take Toughness once to get 3 hitpoints. Using Toughness to get the HP equivalent of a Feat is worthless because while hp may have a Feat equivalent, it is certainly not just 3 hitpoints as no one would ever take Toughness just for the hitpoints. Toughness only becomes worth a feat when we consider the value of a PrC or feat chain that requires it.Notice I said of "of note". Heal, much like Climb and Swim, is quickly rendered obsolete by the increasing magic content of the game. Knowledge (nobility) is slightly more useful but you only need so much knowledge of the subject, especially when Knowledge ramps up exponentially in effectiveness, and no character with only 2 skillpoints/level is going to be pumping Knowledge(nobility) every single level.Something can follow the rules for a Feat and still not be worth a Feat. Trap Sense would not be worth two Feats because a character built along a strictly utilitarian basis would simply not ever pick it. Unless maybe his DM consistently has him running through mazes constructed by Rube Al'Golberg. Whatever guidlines you and the DMG may apply to ascertain the value of a feat are fairly irrelevant. Whether a character concept could be furthered by a feat is irrelevant. If you want an idea of the actual real-life worth of a feat, pay attention to economics and that, given the limited supply of feats, no character concerned about their effectiveness would pay a feat into these abilities unless there's a future carrot being dangled infront of them. Hence why abilities like the theoretical Trap Sense Feat, or Toughness, or Dodge, are so consistently made into prerequisite feats. So you can't strictly compare a subpar ability to a feat. Even if SupPar Ability 1/Day is a feat, that does not mean that giving up SupPar Ability 1/Day should award you a feat. Because a character is very very unlikely to pick SupPar Ability 1/Day as a feat, instead he's going to pick Kick Butt 1/day and become a more effective character. If a character is giving up a bunch of abilities that only provide a marginal increase in effectiveness and mainly flesh out the class, it's silly to give him an equal number of feats inexchange. As the question isn't whether a drop in 10 hitpoints is worth Toughness 3 times, it's whether it's worth Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave.2 times a day. Defenders of the Faith originally, Complete Warrior more recently. The difference between a class feature that's weaker and a feat that's weaker is that a class feature is part a package whereas feats can be picked. Trap Sense +1 sucks, but it's part of being a Barbarian. So Trap Sense +, the class feature, must be judged by what comes along with it and what I can gain in the future from staying a Barbarian (more rages, d12, decent skills, etc, etc) whereas the theoretical Trap Sense +1 feat would be judged according to what I could be picking instead. So what if there are some lame feats and a weak ability is ridiculously judged worth a feat if I never pick them?So you can't strictly compare a subpar ability to a feat. Even if SupPar Ability 1/Day is a feat, that does not mean that giving up SupPar Ability 1/Day should award you a feat. Because a character is very very unlikely to pick SupPar Ability 1/Day as a feat, instead he's going to pick Kick Butt 1/day and become a more effective character. If a character is giving up a bunch of abilities that only provide a marginal increase in effectiveness and mainly flesh out the class, it's silly to give him an equal number of feats inexchange. As the question isn't whether a drop in 10 hitpoints is worth Toughness 3 times, it's whether it's worth Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave.Besides Calvary Charger (which requires several mounted feats) and Improved Critical (which requires Weapon Focus), every single one of these Feats has a requirement of only BAB, Base Save, or a Class Feature.They are? You can get some of them as early as level 2 and none (except Calvary Charger) later then 5.</blockquote>

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