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'Feat' Rogue
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<blockquote data-quote="Trouvere" data-source="post: 3951701" data-attributes="member: 37250"><p>The more I think about it, the more I realise that there is a need for something like the feat rogue. I'm looking for a skillful predominantly social and thieving rogue who's nothing special in combat, i.e. not an 8d6 sneak attack monster. I could try:</p><p>(1) a straight Rogue and vow to never use sneak attack (except it would happen perforce now and then when she acts first or gets stuck in a flanking position!), which is fairly silly, or</p><p>(2) a Bard who never uses music and spellcasting (which of course you can force yourself to do if you purposefully handicap yourself with a Cha of 9 and no ranks in Perform, but that's even sillier), or</p><p>(3) Ranger, but that doesn't have the social skills in class (Urban Ranger is better, but doesn't have Bluff, Forgery, Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand and so on), and does have spellcasting, or</p><p>(4) Cloistered Cleric, with the Trickery domain, but that of course comes with poor BAB and full spellcasting (so you could dump Wisdom and be left with nothing but the skill points, if you were crazy)</p><p>(5) some clumsy multiclass of the first three, based predominantly around Ranger, in which you try to take just enough levels of the other two to get the ranks you want in the skills you want, without accruing too much sneak attack or too many spells (and not easy to do with a Halfling, with favored class Rogue)... <span style="font-size: 9px">Something like Ranger 8 / Bard 6 / Rogue 6, not in that order, which still gives 2nd level bard and ranger spells and 3d6 SA, and has drifted a long way from the initial idea</span></p><p></p><p>Or there's the Feat Rogue, where admittedly the bonus feats are centred around combat. If you build it that way, it's probably better thought of as a fighter with extra skills in exchange for lower HP and BAB. Or you could use those bonus feats to claim just enough of a combat niche (the archery tree, or the TWF tree, say), and use the rest for the few non-combat specific or passive combat fighter bonus feats (Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Dodge, Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse), but in either case, you free up the regular feat slots for things that will build on roguishness, while still maintaining minimum combat competency. At least the potential is there to go either way.</p><p></p><p>Or there's Rystil's set of alternative class abilities gradually gained in place of sneak attack, which, given the examples offered, is <em>mechanically</em> some sort of meshing of rogue/monk/druid/shadowdancer abilities. I like the idea, but I don't think I like the idea <em>for LEW</em>. And although it's flavourful, having one set of special abilities does lock the build into one specific stealthy mould (or if there are several choices at each level, then I start to wonder just why this particular rogue variant has so many options, while a sneak attack rogue can't take any of them). I prefer the simplicity of swapping one class feature (SA) in its entirety for one other (FB feats).</p><p></p><p>[sblock=Other blether]<span style="font-size: 9px">The counterpart to the Feat Rogue, the Sneak Attack Fighter, seems broken to me. What holds back a Rogue 20 or Rogue 16/fullBAB 4 from slamming 30 or 36d6 sneak attack every round? Mostly that with lower BAB, the iterative attacks will rarely hit, and that the Rogue doesn't have the HP to move into place, attack once, then soak the enemy's attack to deliver the full attack the next turn. That limitation largely goes away with a full BAB, d10 hit die fighter with full SA, who also probably has a better AC, and does more Str based damage and PA damage too.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px">It's clear that you can't mix regular Cleric and Cloistered Cleric in a single build, or Ranger and Urban Ranger, or Rogue and Feat Rogue, or Fighter and Sneak Attack Fighter. Do you think it's also possible that it's intended not to be able to combine straight Fighter with Feat Rogue, and Sneak Attack Fighter with straight Rogue?</span>[/sblock]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Trouvere, post: 3951701, member: 37250"] The more I think about it, the more I realise that there is a need for something like the feat rogue. I'm looking for a skillful predominantly social and thieving rogue who's nothing special in combat, i.e. not an 8d6 sneak attack monster. I could try: (1) a straight Rogue and vow to never use sneak attack (except it would happen perforce now and then when she acts first or gets stuck in a flanking position!), which is fairly silly, or (2) a Bard who never uses music and spellcasting (which of course you can force yourself to do if you purposefully handicap yourself with a Cha of 9 and no ranks in Perform, but that's even sillier), or (3) Ranger, but that doesn't have the social skills in class (Urban Ranger is better, but doesn't have Bluff, Forgery, Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand and so on), and does have spellcasting, or (4) Cloistered Cleric, with the Trickery domain, but that of course comes with poor BAB and full spellcasting (so you could dump Wisdom and be left with nothing but the skill points, if you were crazy) (5) some clumsy multiclass of the first three, based predominantly around Ranger, in which you try to take just enough levels of the other two to get the ranks you want in the skills you want, without accruing too much sneak attack or too many spells (and not easy to do with a Halfling, with favored class Rogue)... [SIZE=1]Something like Ranger 8 / Bard 6 / Rogue 6, not in that order, which still gives 2nd level bard and ranger spells and 3d6 SA, and has drifted a long way from the initial idea[/SIZE] Or there's the Feat Rogue, where admittedly the bonus feats are centred around combat. If you build it that way, it's probably better thought of as a fighter with extra skills in exchange for lower HP and BAB. Or you could use those bonus feats to claim just enough of a combat niche (the archery tree, or the TWF tree, say), and use the rest for the few non-combat specific or passive combat fighter bonus feats (Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Dodge, Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse), but in either case, you free up the regular feat slots for things that will build on roguishness, while still maintaining minimum combat competency. At least the potential is there to go either way. Or there's Rystil's set of alternative class abilities gradually gained in place of sneak attack, which, given the examples offered, is [I]mechanically[/I] some sort of meshing of rogue/monk/druid/shadowdancer abilities. I like the idea, but I don't think I like the idea [I]for LEW[/I]. And although it's flavourful, having one set of special abilities does lock the build into one specific stealthy mould (or if there are several choices at each level, then I start to wonder just why this particular rogue variant has so many options, while a sneak attack rogue can't take any of them). I prefer the simplicity of swapping one class feature (SA) in its entirety for one other (FB feats). [sblock=Other blether][SIZE=1]The counterpart to the Feat Rogue, the Sneak Attack Fighter, seems broken to me. What holds back a Rogue 20 or Rogue 16/fullBAB 4 from slamming 30 or 36d6 sneak attack every round? Mostly that with lower BAB, the iterative attacks will rarely hit, and that the Rogue doesn't have the HP to move into place, attack once, then soak the enemy's attack to deliver the full attack the next turn. That limitation largely goes away with a full BAB, d10 hit die fighter with full SA, who also probably has a better AC, and does more Str based damage and PA damage too. It's clear that you can't mix regular Cleric and Cloistered Cleric in a single build, or Ranger and Urban Ranger, or Rogue and Feat Rogue, or Fighter and Sneak Attack Fighter. Do you think it's also possible that it's intended not to be able to combine straight Fighter with Feat Rogue, and Sneak Attack Fighter with straight Rogue?[/SIZE][/sblock] [/QUOTE]
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