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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5545330" data-attributes="member: 61155">Sorry, but no, debate is still entirely possible.  Look, you've covered some of the math earlier. A level 1 PC's expected accuracy as compared to a level 30 PC drops by about 3-4 points.  This is the result of, over those levels, an enemy's defenses increasing by 29. For a PC, they increase by 15 via level, by about 4 via ability score boosts, by 6 via magic enhancement, resulting in that 4 point gap.  However, this doesn't account for the fact that a level 1 PC has no magic items to call upon, and has 1 Encounter Power, 1 Daily Power, and 0 Utility Powers. By level 30, they will have 4 Encounter Powers, 4 Daily Powers, 7 Utility Powers, 3-4 Paragon Path Features, and 3-4 Epic Destiny features.  Note only do they have more powers, but the capabilities of those powers has significantly increased.  Between the potential for those path and destiny features and item qualities to give bonuses to hit, as well as the increased ease of being able to coordinate and obtain combat advantage, as well as the greater presence of temporary buffs (and debuffs for enemies), the average group will have enough resources to more than make up for those few points of difference in their basic numbers, while the optimized group will likely be well ahead of where they started.  Now, the usual counter to this is that enemies have also gained greater capabilities. But, in general, on a much smaller scale. We are more likely to see enemies inflicting more vicious conditions and doing more damage - we are less likely to see enemies using powers that give themselves enormous bonuses to attack or defense, or inflicting similar penalties on the PCs. And while an Epic enemy may have a few more powers compared to a Heroic enemy, it isn't nearly the multiplication of options that a PC has undergone.  Now, does that conclusively prove that Expertise was never needed? Of course not. Like I said - my opinion.  But, similarly, everyone who claims that 'the math' definitely proves the need for Expertise? Also just opinion. Yes, you can objectively look at the math alone. But doing so in isolation reveals exactly nothing about the game as a whole. You can't ignore the different context of an Epic PC vs a Heroic PC. Indeed, given so many options out there, it is practically impossible to measure that context at all, which means neither of us can prove our side of the argument to be absolute... which is all I'm really trying to argue.</blockquote>

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