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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5558634" data-attributes="member: 61155">I've looked at the numbers, and what I've seen generally shows that monster hp alone doesn't keep up with the benefits acquired by the average PC. I am not positive of this, admittedly, since pinning down the benefits of the 'average PC' is the really tricky part of the equation, and I am doubtful you can do so. But, if you have actually found a way to do so, feel free to show me.  By level 30, a PC can have acquired a +1 or +2 bonus to hit from items, a +1 bonus from stat-bumps/etc via their Epic Destiny, a +1 bonus to hit from a Paragon Path, various conditional bonuses to hit via feats, and various temporary bonuses to hit via powers.  Now, do those benefits represent the average PC? No, probably not. But the rules - as built by the designers you, yourselves, are championing as infallible - will assume that equivalent benefits are being acquired, certainly. It is harder to measure these bonuses, especially the more intangible they get - but they are there. Dismissing them as irrelevant, or assuming that 'monster hp' somehow automatically makes up for them seems... well, not the sort of objective conclusion you are laying claim to.  I can certainly accept if you feel monster hp makes up for such things. But if you want to claim otherwise via absolute truth, you'll need to demonstrate so. First by finding a way to delineate what the average benefits are that a PC will likely acquire via these options, and then showing how those effect the math over the course of a PC's career.   Wait, you believe that 14+ round combats are the norm in the absence of Expertise? If that isn't what you are claiming, you may wish to provide some exact quotes, here.  As it is, though, the developers also felt that their initial fix of the Skill Challenge DCs was correct (though it wasn't), and eventually they corrected that. I will certainly give their views a lot more weight than most, but they aren't infallible, and they do tend to try to put forward whatever proof they can to support their current iteration of the rules.  You keep making claim to objective fact. I keep... not seeing any proof of this. If you want me to believe that the benefits PCs acquire from levels 1 - 30 are exactly compensated for by increased, hitpoints, please show me. Simply claiming this as fact, and continuing to state that all other views are made because I "don't know what I'm talking about"... well, it's a relatively insulting form of discussion, and not really an approach that supports your case all that well.   What about gaining that +1 to hit from... a Paragon Path? Or an item? Or from feats?  If you consider it possible - and even expected - to do so in one place, why are the other avenues disregarded? Or even the potential to acquire the benefit from all of those sources?  Or, often, the potential to acquire an equivalent benefit? It's true not all Epic Destinies are created equal. But that doesn't mean they are automatically worse, either. How does the Deadly Trickster's 3 free rerolls stack up against that bonus? Or the Harbringer of Doom rerolling all natural 1s? Or an extra use of a daily power? Or the Glorious Spirit doing +2d8 damage and ignoring the resistances of one enemy? Or the Godmind making an enemy vulnerable 5 psychic for an encounter?  Can benefits like these compare to a loss of a +1 bonus to hit? One might argue so. And the various benefits of feats, items, and powers can add up too.</blockquote>

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