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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5560094" data-attributes="member: 61155">Again, that doesn't make sense. You are saying that the game is designed around a base power level that, at Epic levels, ignores the benefits of feats; class, paragon path, and epic destiny features; magic items; and powers? That doesn't seem an exceptionally good approach to game design, or one that will result in a balance system.   Remember, though, you aren't arguing against the relevance of optimized parties, you are arguing against the relevance of the average party. I don't think either the optimized party nor the minimum party are the relevant baselines for the power level of the game. And when that minimum is specifically designed, as you suggest, to ignore the context of the character's abilities at level 30 compared to level 1... well, as I said, I don't see much use in that approach.   Again, that is a valid interpretation, sure. It's a reasonable thing to believe in. But you keep putting it forward as objective fact - that all those various benefits add up exactly to being equal to the extra hp monsters have. I disagree with that, and I haven't seen any math that really shows otherwise.   Ok, I'm going to try and show where this logic breaks down for me.  1) At level 1, combat takes X rounds with a 55% chance to hit. 2) At level 30, characters have a reduced base chance to hit from level bonus, stat bonus, and enhancement bonus, ignoring other resources they may have. 3) At level 30, monsters have more hp. 4) At level 30, characters have significantly more resources, in the form of more powers, feats, items, features, etc.5) At level 30, the specific powers and recent features they have acquired are more potent than equivalent ones they had at level 1.6*) Elements 4 and 5, above, are precisely balanced by Element 3, but has zero impact on Element 2. 7*) Thus, combats take more rounds.  Those last two steps are where statements are suddenly being made that are subjective. No math has been shown to prove them true, nor am I certain if one can do so, since one would first have to approximate the value of the benefits of your average level 30 character - no easy task!  Continuing to lay claim to absolute authority, to not just say that you disagree with others, but that they aren't even allowed to debate with you - to say that your opinions are equivalent to saying that the "Earth is round", and the various implications that makes about those who are disagreeing with you... ...well, I'm not too big a fan of that approach to discussion, I have to say.</blockquote>

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