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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5534472" data-attributes="member: 78116">This is not valuable when it never happens. In what DnD I have played with a Knight, I have yet to have the Knights mark be enforced more than a handful of times. It is really easy to negate or ignore a Knight entirely. That's the point here and what you refuse to acknowledge. At the same time, a mark penalty sticks around. It's there all the time. Your only ability to get rid of that -2 penalty, which later increases to -3 btw for many defenders is to knock the fighter unconscious.Knocking a high HP, high surge and high defense character unconscious.A 1 square push.What would I rather?Yes, the wizard who is now unconscious because every enemy decided that attacking him without a -2 penalty of any sort was the much better idea <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />If you can ever enforce it: Which the knight very often simply won't be able to do. I honestly wonder if you've played with a Knight - especially at paragon tier - that lacks Dwarf, Defend the Line and World Serpents Grasp. To say this is arguably one of the most frustrating things to do as a defender in 4E is an understatement. Skirmishers will mock you, controllers will trivially depants any ability you have to mark anything all combat and brutes/soldiers simply walk away because they don't care about you. You can go on about the parties "Forced movement" if you like, but it's rather a moot point when they're all dead because the monsters simply outright ignore the knight. A fighter is very hard to ignore: You can NEVER EVER provoke an OA from a fighter and you *must* shift or risk losing your entire movement.I am quite serious when I say the only effective Knight I have ever played or seen played is a Dwarf, Defend the Line, World Serpents Grasp and multiclass Cleric -> Warpriest (or similar, "Get a real mark" equivalent). Anyone who makes a Knight into paragon tier without a real mark PP (Like Warpriest) will suffer immensely as a defender. At the same time, a Fighter can do this as well and be much more effective than the Knight in the first place. Warpriest at level 16 will give the fighter the ability to both combat challenge AND opportunity attack a shifting enemy.Can you tell me what happens to the fighter then Tony? I'll give you a big hint: They stop movement on OAs with a huge accuracy boost. Warpriest gives an OA on shifting. The fighter becomes a terrible black hole that is almost impossible to ever leave. Plus is usually packing a -3 mark penalty that lasts all combat. Albeit the Knight can equally take this, but the difference here is that the Knight doesn't get the ridiculous bonus to OAs that the fighter does. Also in fairness, the aura does become a neat secondary mechanic now that you have a "real" mark that can actually do the job you're required to do. You can keep important things marked for the encounter, but just passively mark other creatures that aren't so important (or that you don't want to consistently draw attention from).Of course in saying this, Knights can now invest a feat to get things like come and get it (even in its current state) - vastly reducing their weaknesses. Powers like that will really help them out and are more than worth a power strike (actually it's unarguably one of the most uneven trades in 4E).Edit:You know, on thinking about it this is actually almost a stealth buff to the strength cleric. You can dump healer's lore to make sure you're not so MAD and take a Warpriest domain - probably getting a bigger benefit than if you tried to take too many stats (the usual strength cleric issue). This actually isn't a bad trade after-all, especially if you have a channel divinity power other than turn undead that doesn't rely on needing an implement (or wisdom).</blockquote>

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