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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5545431" data-attributes="member: 78116">This was only kind of true and isn't so true now - because of the powerswap feats the Knight can get. For one thing, what a weaponmaster does is move into difficult terrain (or an ally that can generate it) and uses come and get it. Without the ability to shift, that's pretty much the end of those monsters going anywhere unless they are skirmishers. The Knight can in fact do this as well - one of the reasons the weapon swap feat is so damn good for them - but due to their inability to really make OAs count like the weaponmaster it's not as inherently effective (but still pretty damn effective). The fighter is really only susceptible to forced movement at that point, but at least he can still count on having some kind of effect on the monsters - the Knight can't and that's the real flaw.This is something I mentioned earlier, but you've entirely missed the real advantage: An enemy cannot maneuver properly to use its best powers optimally. If I have a close blast 3 and am stuck where I can't get a good chunk of the party, as the fighter has me stuck too far away shifting + charge is a humongous loss. On the other hand if I can walk away, freely choose my position and then attack (with no penalty to boot), then that is a net win and there is a huge incentive to do so. Getting 4 party members with no -2 penalty for 1 OA, is a damn fine deal to being forced to shift and charge, taking an attack for the effort and attacking the other PC at a -2 penalty.1 OA is a damn fine deal to optimally use your powers. Unless the Knight can somehow enforce it not to be, such as with Defend the Line (pretty much mandatory for a Knight IMO), then he's in major trouble. Most monsters have very powerful attacks off their standard actions (albeit not all!), but aren't always melee basic attacks. So a shift and charge reduces what they could do considerably (or forces them to use it on the Fighter).Welcome to monster manual 3 design, where plenty of monsters have these mechanics and many controllers slide/pull/push even on a missed attack. Not to mention how skirmishers have changed the wording of many movement powers to move X squares (ignoring slow basically) and don't provoke OAs. Knights are, as mentioned utterly unable to deal with these creatures at all pretty much. Stacked with illusory ambush, now it's once in every 5 rolls. Stacked with a wizards shield, that -8 penalty (essentially) now means an attack that could have outright crippled (or killed) the wizard now misses entirely. Stacked with disruptive strike, the monster may as well have not bothered using the power in the first place. There are so many example powers I could use here, that are commonly available to a wide array of different builds, classes and similar. Penalties that hang around and aren't easy to get rid of - marks are actually one of the harder penalties to get rid of in many cases - can be freely stacked with others (or against bonuses). I've mentioned this before, but a -2 penalty looks unimpressive until it gets a bunch of other things thrown on it. Then it puts a creature over into "I am never hitting anything" territory.I've even had an incredibly rare event where a PC couldn't be critically hit due to penalties. The critical hit would have outright killed them. Good thing my players don't think like you that a -2 penalty isn't worth it! Also I mention this repeatedly but it gets ignored, but a weaponmaster by paragon can get a -3 penalty to marks. Nothing to sneeze at whatsoever. Minding in fairness, a Knight by paragon should multiclass Cleric and get Warpriest. Because god damn Warpriest is amazing for a Knight (I have mentioned this before I think).</blockquote>

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