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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WalterKovacs" data-source="post: 5545763" data-attributes="member: 63763">Sorry, I had misread part of the post with the "i can't get to the rest of the party, etc" ... I read a bit too quickly and saw it as being unable to get to the party on a charge instead of needing to charge to get to the party ... ignore that point.  BUT, unless the attack was such that the +4 bonus WASN'T enough to turn the hit into a miss, but the -2 DID cause it ... that is still a 10% occurance. In the long run, it's going to happen ... but that +4 is still going to work a lot (20% of the time) even without a mark on top of it. All I'm saying is that, while a mark is good ... all those other penalties and bonuses work with or without the mark. The mark adds a bit more, but there are only 2 numbers on the d20 that can show up where you can say "that attacked missed BECAUSE of the mark" ... any lower, and it would have missed WITH the other effects, but without the mark. I'm not talking about rolling a 1, I'm talking bout rolling say ... a 10.  However, to be fair, with interupt penalties, the -2 penalty from the mark does get a boost, as there are 2 'die rolls' in 20 that would cause the attack to miss without needing to use the interupt, in addition to the 2 'die rolls' in 20 that need the interupt AND the mark to cause the miss. So, for the cases like the wizard's shield and staff of defense, they are benefitting twice as much from the mark (10% it causes a miss, 10% it prevents the need to expend the power). However, the 'before hand' attack penalties, like via the rattling keyword, etc ... only get the 10% boost. Yes, you can stack multiple penalties to get say ... 8 extra chances for a miss, but the mark is only contributing to 2 of those (or 3).   I don't argue that marks are easy to get (although marks to all adjacent oppoents do at least require you to grab specific powers instead of ones that may do other things, like impose blinding, dazing, prone, immobilizing or other effects that have their own strategic use), and more penalties means lower chances to hit ... but there is a point where the value of a penalty is trivial (if they already need a 20 to hit), or where a different effect may be preferable (not getting hit IS important, but then again, stunning and in some cases dazing or immobilizing can ALSO do that without needing a lot of people using up actions to create a single missed attack).  And grabbing the feat that gives the weaponmaster -3 to their marks isn't optimizing? Choosing Combat Superiority over Combat Agility isn't optimizing? And, there is a big difference between grabbing an in class power and a feat, neither of which require any stat prereqs or multiclassing, or skill/racial choice, etc; and some of the other lengths characters go to in terms of optimization (getting 17 in a off stat to multiclass into rogue or fighter to be able to surprise charge with a gouge to optimize dpr via charging). It's a very low cost for optimizing is what I'm saying.</blockquote>

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