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#Feminism Is A Collection of 34 "Nanogames" From Designers Around The World
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7714919" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I interpreted your meaning in that sentence as, "These are a bunch of things I approve of or favor, but they've attracted some persons that claim to be supporters that don't actually reflect favorably on the group." </p><p></p><p>That's a problem that comes with any successful social group, and likewise almost every group finds itself being represented publically by its most fringe and most radical elements. I won't delve into that generally, because the most obvious examples are religious and political, but I think that the truth of it speaks for itself if you reflect on it. </p><p></p><p>In the context of EnWorld, it's true of table top Role-Playing's public perception. It's not that there aren't basement dwelling overweight socially inept semi-autistic neck-beards that live with their mothers, it's just that that stereotype doesn't actually reflect even the average gamer (and even then, to the extent that stereotype has some partial truth to it, it does no good to treat those people as pathetic and worthy of disdain, which is one of the reasons I loved (parts of) the 'community' episode.) Likewise, I know from conversation with people that talked about their experiences that a great many in the Satanist community (or Satanist wannabes and would be rebels, and your 'fad' terminology is apt) during the 70s and early 80s treated D&D as being 'Satanist positive' and engaged with AD&D in some truly bizarre and sometimes dangerous ways (LARPing without any of the normal safety rules associated with LARPing, for example). One of the places I knew of that sold the material back when it was hard to find was an occult bookstore. And likewise, I had a cousin who was one of the early adopters in RPGs (perhaps one of the earliest in the state), who encountered the game through his communist commune. But that had more to do with the experimental nature of the 70's, and the very real relationship between D&D and the '70's counter-culture - while it certainly contributed to the occult scare - in no way justifies something like Jack Chick. Nonetheless, any social group pretty much always gets represented by its fringe simply because it is the fringe that is most visible, most memorable, and often the most vocal and out-spoken.</p><p></p><p>Some in the thread have said that my response to the document was motivated by the fact that I didn't think 'feminist' topics are worth discussion. That in my opinion doesn't represent my position at all. My position I think parallels my somewhat against the grain position that the 'occult scare' didn't popularize D&D and that the negative publicity it generated was actually highly destructive to the brand and the community as a whole. My problem with the document is that while there are probably some good games or good ideas buried in that mess, for the most part the document is representing 'feminism' through its fringe and often bundling the idea of feminism with things that I think are truly tangential to the subject. My problem is that greatly misrepresents feminism, misrepresents women, and will generally create a strongly negative reaction rather than a positive one, subjecting women and feminism to highly negative stereotypes rather than positive and uplifting ones.</p><p></p><p>I'm of the opinion that the most constructive contribution would be to highlight skillful creative work by female author's that weren't overtly about 'women's issues', precisely because it's becoming a negative stereotype that women designers can only create 'anti-games' (games with little or no actual gameplay) about 'women's issues'. Instead, it's almost always better to make your philosophical points in the subtext rather than overtly, so that liking your creative work doesn't depend on the consumer solely on having the same philosophical position you do. Authors like JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis, Gene Wolfe, Orson Scott Card, and John C. Wright very obviously have philosophical subtexts to their work and positions that they wish to advance. But they are by far at their most powerful when those topics remain undercurrents of their work, easily missed by those not already insiders. As soon as they get 'preachy', they have a tendency to be received as being quite wacky by the very outgroups that they might otherwise reach - to say nothing of the fact that the overtly didactic is typically not a marker of being very creative, skillful or artistic. One should be seeking to 'show, not tell', and 'Preaching to the choir', as the old analogy goes, does very little to change anyone's opinions.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7714919, member: 4937"] I interpreted your meaning in that sentence as, "These are a bunch of things I approve of or favor, but they've attracted some persons that claim to be supporters that don't actually reflect favorably on the group." That's a problem that comes with any successful social group, and likewise almost every group finds itself being represented publically by its most fringe and most radical elements. I won't delve into that generally, because the most obvious examples are religious and political, but I think that the truth of it speaks for itself if you reflect on it. In the context of EnWorld, it's true of table top Role-Playing's public perception. It's not that there aren't basement dwelling overweight socially inept semi-autistic neck-beards that live with their mothers, it's just that that stereotype doesn't actually reflect even the average gamer (and even then, to the extent that stereotype has some partial truth to it, it does no good to treat those people as pathetic and worthy of disdain, which is one of the reasons I loved (parts of) the 'community' episode.) Likewise, I know from conversation with people that talked about their experiences that a great many in the Satanist community (or Satanist wannabes and would be rebels, and your 'fad' terminology is apt) during the 70s and early 80s treated D&D as being 'Satanist positive' and engaged with AD&D in some truly bizarre and sometimes dangerous ways (LARPing without any of the normal safety rules associated with LARPing, for example). One of the places I knew of that sold the material back when it was hard to find was an occult bookstore. And likewise, I had a cousin who was one of the early adopters in RPGs (perhaps one of the earliest in the state), who encountered the game through his communist commune. But that had more to do with the experimental nature of the 70's, and the very real relationship between D&D and the '70's counter-culture - while it certainly contributed to the occult scare - in no way justifies something like Jack Chick. Nonetheless, any social group pretty much always gets represented by its fringe simply because it is the fringe that is most visible, most memorable, and often the most vocal and out-spoken. Some in the thread have said that my response to the document was motivated by the fact that I didn't think 'feminist' topics are worth discussion. That in my opinion doesn't represent my position at all. My position I think parallels my somewhat against the grain position that the 'occult scare' didn't popularize D&D and that the negative publicity it generated was actually highly destructive to the brand and the community as a whole. My problem with the document is that while there are probably some good games or good ideas buried in that mess, for the most part the document is representing 'feminism' through its fringe and often bundling the idea of feminism with things that I think are truly tangential to the subject. My problem is that greatly misrepresents feminism, misrepresents women, and will generally create a strongly negative reaction rather than a positive one, subjecting women and feminism to highly negative stereotypes rather than positive and uplifting ones. I'm of the opinion that the most constructive contribution would be to highlight skillful creative work by female author's that weren't overtly about 'women's issues', precisely because it's becoming a negative stereotype that women designers can only create 'anti-games' (games with little or no actual gameplay) about 'women's issues'. Instead, it's almost always better to make your philosophical points in the subtext rather than overtly, so that liking your creative work doesn't depend on the consumer solely on having the same philosophical position you do. Authors like JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis, Gene Wolfe, Orson Scott Card, and John C. Wright very obviously have philosophical subtexts to their work and positions that they wish to advance. But they are by far at their most powerful when those topics remain undercurrents of their work, easily missed by those not already insiders. As soon as they get 'preachy', they have a tendency to be received as being quite wacky by the very outgroups that they might otherwise reach - to say nothing of the fact that the overtly didactic is typically not a marker of being very creative, skillful or artistic. One should be seeking to 'show, not tell', and 'Preaching to the choir', as the old analogy goes, does very little to change anyone's opinions. [/QUOTE]
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