Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Fiddling around with Fifth Ed
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="MechaPilot" data-source="post: 7452215" data-attributes="member: 82779"><p>As others have pointed out, the surveys have shown WotC that few campaigns go past level 13 or so. Naturally, their materials are targeting the 1st - about 15th level range.</p><p></p><p>Also, high level play is a lot of work for a DM (and a writer of adventures) because of all the magic the PCs are likely to have at their disposal. High level play requires a lot of built-in attrition of magical resources. I use a bunch of pit traps and chasms just wide enough that they can't be jumped just to eat up lower level spell slots (on jump, feather fall, spider climb and fly).</p><p></p><p>A high level adventure also pretty much has to be written with the assumption that the magic arms race is in full effect.</p><p>Want to keep something secret? It needs magic to keep it secret, and magic to hide that magic from detect magic.</p><p>The bad guys better have some means of preventing the PCs from scrying on them or teleporting in and out of their lair. That means more magic.</p><p>You might want to make sure patrols have a caster who can dispel magic on that Leomund's Tiny Hut the PCs are trying to rest in too. Yup. More magic.</p><p>And, you might consider adding a caster to several encounters just so they can counterspell some of the PCs' spells.</p><p></p><p>Frankly, high-level play as written is just a huge pain in the butt to run, let alone write adventures for. As a DM, I'd rather start a new game at that point than have to spend at least double the normal time preparing for high-level sessions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Encounter creation math doesn't work well. The only edition I found it worked well in was 4e. For every other edition you're probably better off using a different method. For 5e my base assumption for an encounter is a number of creatures equal to 1.5 times the size of the party (2 times party size if their AC or HPs are substantally lower than the PCs').</p><p></p><p>If a monster can hit your party's average AC at least 40% of the time, has at least as many attacks per action as the average party member, and the average party member can hit it no more than 75% of the time, I'd say it's on relatively even footing. Throw 1.5 times the party size of those at it and you've got a relatively balanced encounter.</p><p></p><p>Another way to look at it is to modify things based on optimization. I have a player at my table who loves to min/max. His wizard bladesinger can achieve a 26 AC with bladesong and shield active. I count that PC as two PCs when doing any encounter math.</p><p></p><p>Also, the RAW encounter math assumes no magic items. If any member of the party has any magic item that heals them, gives them any kind of resistance, boosts their AC, or their attack and damage bonus, then the math will be out of whack. Personally, I just don't give out +X items, ever. I might be willing to break this rule for some weapons (though I prefer giving them expanded crit ranges or just higher damage dice), but never for anything that boosts AC. NEVER.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A lot of 5e monsters lack tactical depth compared to 4e. I steal monster abilities liberally from 4e. I also make my monsters improvise actions a lot. The look on my PCs faces when a kobold rushes them, slides between their legs to get behind them before taking the dodge action, and then another one rushes them and now both kobolds have advantage is priceless.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?645419-DRAGONS-An-Alternate-Take-on-a-Classic-Foe" target="_blank">Here's what I do with dragons in my setting.</a> I'm sure you'll find it rather 4e inspired. And, if not something you want to use then at least hopefully reading it will be good inspiration for you to come up with other stuff of your own.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?647470-NECROFUNGUS-A-New-Hazard" target="_blank">And here's a hazard and associated monster from my setting.</a> Feel free to use them if you wish.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've found that as well. I think that might be an artifact of the death and dying system 5e uses, because I found the same thing in 4e as well.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True, but most 5e official products are remakes of old products who never gave a crap about balancing daily encounters anyway. But, those original products also assumed wizards would have no cantrips to use every round. I like my wizards to always have something magical they can do, but combat cantrips do make them roughly on par with fighters making melee attacks. I suppose one way to deal with this would be to cull all damage dealing cantrips from the cantrip lists. That way a wizard could prestidigitation or friends all day long, but no damage without spending a slot or spell points. Or you could just lower the damage dice of the damaging cantrips to d2s, d3s, d4s or d6s.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Matt's videos and advice are generally quite good.</p><p></p><p>I don't think you need to redesign every monster. Just start giving monsters equivalent equipment. At higher level play why wouldn't enemy monsters have +X weapons? As long as the +X equals or is less than what the PCs already have, you're not giving them any upgrades when they defeat the monsters. And why wouldn't goblins suitable for a higher level game be wearing heavier armor? Let's say . . . scale mail. I'm sure whatever high level boss is pitting them against the party can afford to outfit them in better-than-usual armor and weapons.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MechaPilot, post: 7452215, member: 82779"] As others have pointed out, the surveys have shown WotC that few campaigns go past level 13 or so. Naturally, their materials are targeting the 1st - about 15th level range. Also, high level play is a lot of work for a DM (and a writer of adventures) because of all the magic the PCs are likely to have at their disposal. High level play requires a lot of built-in attrition of magical resources. I use a bunch of pit traps and chasms just wide enough that they can't be jumped just to eat up lower level spell slots (on jump, feather fall, spider climb and fly). A high level adventure also pretty much has to be written with the assumption that the magic arms race is in full effect. Want to keep something secret? It needs magic to keep it secret, and magic to hide that magic from detect magic. The bad guys better have some means of preventing the PCs from scrying on them or teleporting in and out of their lair. That means more magic. You might want to make sure patrols have a caster who can dispel magic on that Leomund's Tiny Hut the PCs are trying to rest in too. Yup. More magic. And, you might consider adding a caster to several encounters just so they can counterspell some of the PCs' spells. Frankly, high-level play as written is just a huge pain in the butt to run, let alone write adventures for. As a DM, I'd rather start a new game at that point than have to spend at least double the normal time preparing for high-level sessions. Encounter creation math doesn't work well. The only edition I found it worked well in was 4e. For every other edition you're probably better off using a different method. For 5e my base assumption for an encounter is a number of creatures equal to 1.5 times the size of the party (2 times party size if their AC or HPs are substantally lower than the PCs'). If a monster can hit your party's average AC at least 40% of the time, has at least as many attacks per action as the average party member, and the average party member can hit it no more than 75% of the time, I'd say it's on relatively even footing. Throw 1.5 times the party size of those at it and you've got a relatively balanced encounter. Another way to look at it is to modify things based on optimization. I have a player at my table who loves to min/max. His wizard bladesinger can achieve a 26 AC with bladesong and shield active. I count that PC as two PCs when doing any encounter math. Also, the RAW encounter math assumes no magic items. If any member of the party has any magic item that heals them, gives them any kind of resistance, boosts their AC, or their attack and damage bonus, then the math will be out of whack. Personally, I just don't give out +X items, ever. I might be willing to break this rule for some weapons (though I prefer giving them expanded crit ranges or just higher damage dice), but never for anything that boosts AC. NEVER. A lot of 5e monsters lack tactical depth compared to 4e. I steal monster abilities liberally from 4e. I also make my monsters improvise actions a lot. The look on my PCs faces when a kobold rushes them, slides between their legs to get behind them before taking the dodge action, and then another one rushes them and now both kobolds have advantage is priceless. [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?645419-DRAGONS-An-Alternate-Take-on-a-Classic-Foe"]Here's what I do with dragons in my setting.[/URL] I'm sure you'll find it rather 4e inspired. And, if not something you want to use then at least hopefully reading it will be good inspiration for you to come up with other stuff of your own. [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?647470-NECROFUNGUS-A-New-Hazard"]And here's a hazard and associated monster from my setting.[/URL] Feel free to use them if you wish. I've found that as well. I think that might be an artifact of the death and dying system 5e uses, because I found the same thing in 4e as well. True, but most 5e official products are remakes of old products who never gave a crap about balancing daily encounters anyway. But, those original products also assumed wizards would have no cantrips to use every round. I like my wizards to always have something magical they can do, but combat cantrips do make them roughly on par with fighters making melee attacks. I suppose one way to deal with this would be to cull all damage dealing cantrips from the cantrip lists. That way a wizard could prestidigitation or friends all day long, but no damage without spending a slot or spell points. Or you could just lower the damage dice of the damaging cantrips to d2s, d3s, d4s or d6s. Matt's videos and advice are generally quite good. I don't think you need to redesign every monster. Just start giving monsters equivalent equipment. At higher level play why wouldn't enemy monsters have +X weapons? As long as the +X equals or is less than what the PCs already have, you're not giving them any upgrades when they defeat the monsters. And why wouldn't goblins suitable for a higher level game be wearing heavier armor? Let's say . . . scale mail. I'm sure whatever high level boss is pitting them against the party can afford to outfit them in better-than-usual armor and weapons. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Fiddling around with Fifth Ed
Top