Fields of Blood - Naval Combat?

[Tulon]

Greetings everyone!
I'm not absolutely sure wheter this goes in "House Rules" or the "d20/Open Game" boards, but I thought it would fit in here best.

So, right to the point. I plan running a realm-focussed campaign using "Fields of Blood" as the main source for rules. Since FoB does not deliver any rules for incorporating ships into the game, but I definetively want to have naval combat (the campaign focusses on the archipelago of Lanteanar, on which human refugees established a realm, focussing on military and naval abilities due to the hostile terrain and the surrounding waters - the civilization itself is strictly matriarchal, something like "modern amazons").

Maybe someone using FoB already created rules for naval combat - if so, please post them here. Otherwise, this thread could be used as a discussion and an exchange of ideas of how to do so.
What I'm looking for is:
- production cost of naval vessels in Resource Points
- types and abilities of ships (movement speed, bombardment of coastal targets, transporting troops and smuggling food to besieged cities)
- naval combat involving two or more ships, maybe including advanced options like boarding or ramming and the abilities of the ship's Captain and/or the fleet's Admiral (Command Ability?)

 

[nothing to see here]

While we're at it...

I'm right with you Tulon. Fields of blood is a wonderful set of rules -- not only very detailed, but modular enough to allow easy tinkering, additions. However, there are a few things (like Naval combat) missing.

It would be great if we could codify a set of comprehensive -- realm/mass combat rules around this base (I think FoB presents the best rules on the market, though I stand to be corrected). This is a long term project.

Here is the quick wish-list I drew up for ways the rules set could be build on.

1) Naval rules -- like you said, important for many mass battles.

2) Non - landed power bases -- similar to birthright...rules around actions for running a church or guild.

3) Scalability - AEG's Empire did a good job of presenting rules that could be scaled in size depending on the campaign -- adapting that would be nice. Would apply to both realm and unit sizes.

4) Strength of Court -- another idea lifted from Mike Mearls' Empire book, fleshing out key advisors with their own attributes and loyalty who can perform some of the tasks of rulership.

5) Technology/Rulership style -- build on the basic templates contained in Fields of Blood to give specific forms of government their own advantages and disadvantages.

6) Gunpowder -- Technology. Stat out some cannons, for those who want to use them.

All 6 are managable (Though item #2 would take a lot of work). Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[MarauderX]

Excellent ideas for FoB.

For costs of ships, I would equate them from gold value to Resource Points with a straight conversion. Construction times would come from that, and soon enough you could start putting sea/river port upgrades to build more & faster. I would use some strategy games that have naval warefare to guage land vs. sea costs, having equivalents for different sized armies. Transports would be the toughest to do, but once you start doing the others I can't imagine it would be that bad.

Movement speeds and range would come straight out of the SRD, same as regular troop movements. However, given trade winds, weather, etc., speed may be increased or decreased more than a typical land unit. Keep in mind too that all ships would be moving on 'roads' for movement.

I would incorporate extra rules for ramming & boarding, and would make any rules for such simple. I think each ship would be more range-oriented in design, with melee back-up for boarding. And I think the simplier the rules the better. I'm excited to see what comes up, as I plan to have some large scale naval adventures in the distant future.

 

[Tulon]

Hm, for naval movement, I thought about something like this:

The DM rolls an additional dice per turn, thus setting the direction the wind goes along the map. It would have to be a D6, since FoB is played in Hexes.
So, this wind-direction will be respected every time any ship on the map wants to move. If it goes with the wind, it can move +1 Hex, if against -1. Otherwise there won't be a change in speed.
How's that for starting?

Additionally, the experience of the ship's commander could be taken into account. For example, if he's really good, the unit won't suffer in speed by moving against the wind. Or the ship even gains an overall bonus in movement.

Of course, a fleet can only move so fast like the slowest single ship in it.


As for a church - I want to have one as an independent faction and am right now using modified FoB realm-rules for it. The church will have one single "capital"-hex in form of a city, which will of course contain a cathedral. Several thorpes will be set as well, representing monasteries of the church. Also, I will give them their own troops to play with. Not to mention they will gain a huge bonus for clerical magic. But you are right, it would be nice if there could be some "special rules" on how to influence other players cities which pray to the god/goddess your church represents.

The idea of "advisors" with own attributes is nice, as well. For example, assigning such advisors to a town so he can improve it's performance (much like a general to an army).
Also, the "loyalty" of that character could be of interest. How about trying to just buy another player's city, assuming you have enough gold? This would be an action performable with the spies from your thieve's guilds. The size of that city would also matter - of course, it is easier to bribe a small village's leader than a large city's mayor or council. The morale and presence of troops is also important. A mayor who dislikes his government is much more accessible for defection than an idealistic leader who supports his realm in the "rightful and holy war against the barbaric enemy". Plus, even a mayor who WOULD take your offer could be unwilling to do so because his government has garrisoned some military in the city. If he still accepts to defect, it could come to a rebellion and an immediate combat of the town's inhabitants (Irregular Troops) versus their own realm's soldiers.
Ahh, so much possibilities.. the ideas just keep flowing in

 

[Silveras]

There are some decent ship-to-ship combat rules in Fantasy Flight Games' "Seafarer's Handbook". Those might provide a basis, as it also includes a standardized ship stat block design and some ship design rules.

The problem with scaling in Empire is bad math ... the land scales at a different rate than the other values, making land progressively less useful as you go increase the scale.

There are two problems with scaling in Fields of Blood:

1) The movement points assigned to units reflect the ability to move based on 12-mile hexes. Changing the land area requires you to also adjust the movement points.

2) Unlike Empire, Fields of Blood uses all of the community sizes from the SRD. These do not scale; a Village is always a Village under the SRD and Fields of Blood. Because the economy is partially based on income from "improvements" added to settlements, simple scaling eliminates the "auxiliary" settlements supporting the bigger ones.

Now, as to how to deal with those...
1) For movement, I recommend adopting the six-mile hex as the standard for all movement. Doubling the movement points of a unit allows you to use the same cost-per-hex. Whatever scale the game plays at, all military movement should be done in 6-mile hexes (which, unlike the 12-mile-hexes, adapt well to 12, 24, or 30 mile campaign maps).

2) When it comes to scaling up the realms, I'd suggest not doing it. The exploration and growth rules make all sizes of community relevant at all times. Rather than mess with scaling, I'd stick with one scale.

However, the smaller villages, etc., supporting a Town or City can become a record-keeping nightmare. Teplace the surrounding communities with a bonus for development. Placing a Small City, for example, automatically includes 1d2+2 supporting communities. The costs of adding a Market, Fishmarket, or other "improvement" are increased by 20% per supporting community. The income of the Small City is also increased by 25% per supporting community. This preserves the supporting community as something that helps feed the bigger settlement, while also preserving the expense of upgrading the region.

The simplified bookkeeping option also helps deal with trying to use more standard 24-mile or 30-mile scaled maps.

As for making non-landed power centers work...
First, reduce the tax rates. The Ruler should get 10% + 1d20% of the RPs. The Church and Druids split another 5+1d10 % of the RPs.
A Mageguild gets 5+1d10 %
A criminal guild also gets 5 + 1d10 %
The remainder (25% - 75 %) is used by the community as described in FoB.

A non-landed organization can use RPs earned anywhere for actions in any province, even across realm borders.

The fun part is going to be coming up with ways for them to build where they are not welcome.

 

[Tulon]

Are you able to post the most significant rules of that handbook? Maybe it is possible to "convert" them into FoB.

Well, any ideas for those "non-landed organization (i.e. church or guild) activities"? I'd think of something like altering the citizen's morale (maybe even instilling a rebellion if very successful) or assassinating another player's key generals or mayors, etc...

As for the church, it could maybe go this way:
Temples and cathedrals are no longer built by the realm, but (with permission of the realm) by the church (which could maybe get a share of the taxes from that realm), which permits that church to either manipulate the citizens of a realm, or support the local government (with both raising the morale and also clerical magic), encouraging the realm to support an already existing church within its borders to not loose it's favor.
It will get interesting when there is more than one church active on the world map. If it would be possible to build more than one temple in a city, it would encourage the churches even more to "push away" the possible opponent.
Possible actions would also include special rituals and powerful NPC-based activities such as wandering priests converting the members of another church to the own god/goddess.
The same would of course fit for various cults, which could act even more in secrecy.

About the 6/12-mile hexes, I think I - for myself - will stay with what FoB offers (the 12-mile hex). That scale is, in my opinion, the most suitable one for all purposes. For example, a 12-mile-hex can realistically hold just one small village as well as a large city. But when you stick to a 6-mile hex, a large city would just not be "that large".
However, what would be possible to avoid that could be to "incorporate" other hexes around a large city/capital into the settlement, if it becomes too big...
That would also allow battles within a city to go over weeks, with the attacker occupying one hex of the capital, and the defender toughly holding the other hex (like it was with Orléans - that example just came into my mind thinking all this over). Of course, during a battle within the city walls, the settlement will not produce any RPs at all.

But the idea of increasing the improvement's costs with the size of the population center is a nice one, for sure. However, it would also be necessery to also add the costs for already existing improvements when upgrading the province. For example, if you already have a fishing fleet within your village, you will - when upgrading to a city - have to pay the difference for "enlarging" that improvement, thus allowing the fishing fleet to feed the larger number of citizens...

 

[Silveras]

Are you able to post the most significant rules of that handbook? Maybe it is possible to "convert" them into FoB.

Well, any ideas for those "non-landed organization (i.e. church or guild) activities"? I'd think of something like altering the citizen's morale (maybe even instilling a rebellion if very successful) or assassinating another player's key generals or mayors, etc...

As for the church, it could maybe go this way:
Temples and cathedrals are no longer built by the realm, but (with permission of the realm) by the church (which could maybe get a share of the taxes from that realm), which permits that church to either manipulate the citizens of a realm, or support the local government (with both raising the morale and also clerical magic), encouraging the realm to support an already existing church within its borders to not loose it's favor.

It will get interesting when there is more than one church active on the world map. If it would be possible to build more than one temple in a city, it would encourage the churches even more to "push away" the possible opponent.
Possible actions would also include special rituals and powerful NPC-based activities such as wandering priests converting the members of another church to the own god/goddess.

The same would of course fit for various cults, which could act even more in secrecy.

True. But I find that this also required coming up with rules about how many can be active in one location, and they can interact without going to actual war.

About the 6/12-mile hexes, I think I - for myself - will stay with what FoB offers (the 12-mile hex). That scale is, in my opinion, the most suitable one for all purposes. For example, a 12-mile-hex can realistically hold just one small village as well as a large city. But when you stick to a 6-mile hex, a large city would just not be "that large".

That is incorrect. A 12-mile hex has an area of 125 square miles. Each 1 square mile could be worked by a dozen small thorps/dorfs/villages (See S. John Ross' Medieval Demographics Made Easy and A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe for more "real" figures) ... and there would only be a mile or so between them throughout the 125 square miles ... so there are more like 200+ small settlements scattered about a 12-mile Hex.

From page 5 of Fields of Blood: "Population Center - Each governed province contains a single population center, representing the largest town or city in the province." In other words, on an abstract level, only the biggest is used to determine the costs and income, but it is not the only one in the province.

However, what would be possible to avoid that could be to "incorporate" other hexes around a large city/capital into the settlement, if it becomes too big...
That would also allow battles within a city to go over weeks, with the attacker occupying one hex of the capital, and the defender toughly holding the other hex (like it was with Orléans - that example just came into my mind thinking all this over). Of course, during a battle within the city walls, the settlement will not produce any RPs at all.

But the idea of increasing the improvement's costs with the size of the population center is a nice one, for sure. However, it would also be necessery to also add the costs for already existing improvements when upgrading the province. For example, if you already have a fishing fleet within your village, you will - when upgrading to a city - have to pay the difference for "enlarging" that improvement, thus allowing the fishing fleet to feed the larger number of citizens...

Generally, while I like the design of Fields of Blood and find some of the work elegant, it is incomplete. Lacking naval battle rules is just one area. Ignoring the potential for Economic, Religious, and Magical organizations to wield power independently of the land ruler is a more serious shortcoming. I am having more luck converting Birthright to 3rd Edition rules than trying to convert FoB to be more like BR (see this thread for my house rules notes, this thread for a discussion of creating non-landed power bases, and this one for a comparison among the various books on the topic of domains).

 

[Tulon]

Well, has anyone some good ideas for RP costs of naval vessels? To begin, lets say for a small, a medium and a large ship.
Later we could make differences between the type of ship (moves by rudders, sails or even magic?).

Construction of ships should be possible at every city which owns a port. Plus, the size of the city (thus, the size of the port) would also affect what type of ship it can build. The largest warships can only be built in a realm's metropolis, for example, while fast and versatile scout-corvettes can also be assembled within a village.
If small ships are built in a large city, it can be possible to build more than one at a time. So, let's say, each city with a port has "construction slots" depending on it's size, and larger ships take up more slots.
Optional: naval infantry could be loaded up permanently on larger warships, by simply attaching a unit which fulfills some specific conditions to it. This unit will then be able to board enemy ships and, of course, will help defend the own vessel in case it gets attacked. Also, they can support an invasion by serving as "spearhead" troops landing within a city's borders, or on a coast in the back of the hostile nation.

first proposal:
Village + Small Town : 1 construction slot
Large Town + Small City : 2 construction slots
Large City : 3 construction slots
Metropolis : 4 construction slots

 

[MarauderX]

If small ships are built in a large city, it can be possible to build more than one at a time. So, let's say, each city with a port has "construction slots" depending on it's size, and larger ships take up more slots.
Optional: naval infantry could be loaded up permanently on larger warships, by simply attaching a unit which fulfills some specific conditions to it. This unit will then be able to board enemy ships and, of course, will help defend the own vessel in case it gets attacked. Also, they can support an invasion by serving as "spearhead" troops landing within a city's borders, or on a coast in the back of the hostile nation.

first proposal:
Village + Small Town : 1 construction slot
Large Town + Small City : 2 construction slots
Large City : 3 construction slots
Metropolis : 4 construction slots

Good so far. I would opt for making each town only capable of building a small or medium ship until it gets a Shipyard. It could also upgrade the Shipyard to build larger or specialized ships, depending on the other available buildings & groups in the town. Say if a Thieves Guild is present, then swashbucklers might be the seafaring equivalent, with the ability to gather info and all of the things a thieves guild is normally good for, only by sea.
I would judge fishing vessels would also improved with a Shipyard and/or Port, and trade would also increase. Not having the book with me, I would have an option for a Market equivalent, say a Fish Market, to increase trade & such.

Creating a Shipyard or Port should be on the scale of a large project, as building the docks, providing wave breakers (or other means to protect the port from nasty weather), etc. are major expenses.

In some ways you could treat building a ship the same as building defenses - you pay for what you get, you can only fill the defense with so many troops, and the defenses have a fixed number of bonuses.

Some size/naming conventions:
Lancer
Cutter
Frigate
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battleship

Some class/use conventions:
Long Range Attack
Short Range Strike
Carrier/Troop Transport
Magic
Indirect Fire (think 'alternate' spells)
Reconnaissance
Colony/Outpost
Point Defense/Melee Attack


Also, try emailing Eden Studios about FoB expansions and such; some of the staff there might help you out with their thoughts.

 

[Tulon]

You think of the Shipyard as an additional building, somehow an expansion/upgrade to the port? *nods* Nice idea.
Though upgrading the Shipyard wouldn't be necessary (too much micromanagement), I think, since I'd say it upgrades "automatically" together with the population center.
Nice options could be when two or more of the city's installations work together, for example: Shipyard + Thieve's Guild = Smugglers.
The Fish-Market is already included in standard FoB-rules, since the fishing fleet already provides a 25%-bonus to the city, which is quite much in my opinion.

About the ships, I thought of something like a "toolkit", which provides every player with some basic, easy-to-use rules for constructing ship-classes.
For example:
Step 1: select size and hull-type (determines free "slots" for equipment)
Step 2: select type of movement (rudders, sails, etc.. - determines speed)
Step 3: select onboard armaments (I've got a huge amount of ideas for these...)
Step 4: select additional "Feats" (ramming thorn, troop quarters, cargo space, daughter-ship, ...)
Step 5: select materials (modifies armor class and cost factor)

Another thing that would interest me are more rules for mass combat in FoB.
FoB already delivers two different systems, one for detailed combat, the other one for very quick and large scale battle.
However, I'm looking for something between. Where different units still preserve their own personal fighting style (particular long-range units like archers) and contribute them to the battle - but which is still relatively quick and (most important) calculable by one person (the Game Master).
The campaign I want to run goes online via e-mail, but the mass combat system FoB offers is too simple for my opinion.

About emailing Eden Studios - that might be a good idea, although I never did this before. But I also recognized at least one member of Eden Studios posting here in this forum?