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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Serge" data-source="post: 899232" data-attributes="member: 4049">I don't know that I find this troubling...  I do think it's contradictory to Origen's ultimate idea that all beings, even Satan, will be forgiven in the end.  For former thought you attribute to Origen (I actually don't recall reading this) suggests that all sentient beings can continue to make choices throughout Time.  But, in the end, it doesn't really matter what choice one makes because he'll be brought back to the One.Well, considering that enough different Christian sects strove to direct everything to Christ/God, and reduce the impact of other beneficent spirits (they were either faceless angels or became Demons), this is not surprising.  Heck, there are a lot of Christians who do not believe in a personified Satan.I think the reason why there's nothing in the default cosmology dealing with fallen angels is because WotC is afraid of treading what appears to be clear religious lines.  I think this comes too close to the times they were dealing with fundamentalists in the 80's, so they decided to err on the side of caution.  I think this is the reason why we don't see divine Archfiends as well.Also, I think ruleslawyer already pointed out that there are enough religious/mythological cosmologies in which there were demonic (I mean Evil) spirits about before angelic beings started moving around.  I don't think there has to be a fall for their to be demonic beings.But, when we start looking at a game in which there's an answer for virtually everything, the lack of a true Fallen Celestial template is glaring.  I do not consider Green Ronin's Fallen Celestial template as appropriate largely because it doesn't make sense within the framework of what their cosmology offers (unless one believes that the Lords of Goodness -- literally all gods opposed to Asmodeus and the various Demon Princes -- are Archangels+).  The fall implies that the angels lost something profound.  This is in no ways reflected in the template and I think that's problematic.Still, I like virtually everything GR has put out, so I guess they can make a faux pas every now and again...</blockquote>

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