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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Erik Mona" data-source="post: 2611016" data-attributes="member: 2174">My Gamagin and Ipos were inspired from real world occult tradition, so surely some of the blame can be spread around to the likes of Wierus, Spence, Crowley, and MacGregor-Mathers. But whatever. It's not like someone's opinion on what demons are cool and what demons aren't is an objective measure, anyway. Arguing over what is or isn't "lame" strikes me as a pursuit of limited utility. I have no problem with Gygax's approach to Graz'zt's origins (he invented Graz'zt, after all), but within the context of an official D&D product it's all a bit academic, since the abat-dolor material appeared in a New Infinities novel and is not within the copyright of Wizards of the Coast. Therefore, my opinion on the abat-dolor is moot vis a vis the topic at hand.I agree with this, actually. She's only ever had a few paragraphs of description, so she's far from hopeless. It does grab me. I don't have a problem with Pale Night as a general concept. As described by you, she seems quite compelling. As a catch-all mother demon for a bunch of previously detailed demon lords, not so much. But hey, it's just my opinion. I would hazard to guess that I've done as much research on the topic as just about anyone, both recently and in years past. I am beginning to suspect that my memory of an Orcus/Graz'zt familial tie comes from a draft of "Faces of Evil," and that the link did not make it into the final product, perhaps at my suggestion. Since I do not have my references or working files from a decade-old product here at work, I cannot say for sure.I'm fairly intrigued by the vitriol in your post. I didn't realize my comment was anywhere near as offensive as it must have been. James is a true talent, to be sure. I'll let him comment, if he cares to, on whether I know what I'm talking about when it comes to demons in D&D. Yeah, sorry I can't place the Graz'zt/Orcus reference off the top of my head. I shall endeavor to do better next time. I should think my work speaks for itself insofar as respect for "designers who came before" is concerned. A good place to start looking would be Dungeon #116.--Erik</blockquote>

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